§ Resolution reported, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £4,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1911, for Grants-in-Aid to Universities and Collages in Great Britain."
§ Sir F. BANBURYI bog to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
I do so not because I object to universities, but because I object to the sloppiness of the finance of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I find that the original Estimate was £218,100, and that was for universities, colleges, and intermediate education in Wales. We had a Supplementary Estimate in July, 1910, of £21,000, and now we have a further Supplementary Estimate of £4,000 In addition to this I must point out that in the original Estimate there was no sum put down for these particular grants, and there is a footnote which says that the expenditure by the universities out of these Grants-in-Aid will not be accounted for to the Controller and Auditor-General, nor will any balances which remain be surrendered at the close of the financial year. This is certainly the second time at which a footnote to this effect has appeared at the bottom of these Supplementary Estimates. I object very strongly to this, because it is a bad precedent, and nothing ought to be taken out of the hands of the Comptroller and Auditor-General which is granted by Parliament. We ought not to have a Supplementary Estimate upon a Supplementary Estimate. I want 2631 to know how it is that when the original Estimates were proposed it was considered necessary to grant this extra money to the universities. The whole principle is so bad, that in order to show that at any rate there are in the House at the present moment a certain number of people who are desirous of seeing that money when granted should be granted in a businesslike manner, and when expended there shall be some means of seeing that the money is expended in the way it was intended, and that these grants should not be taken out of the control of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, that I propose to reduce this Vote by £100. I know that discussion on these Estimates should conclude at about three o'clock, and therefore I will not labour my argument. I appeal to hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, who are constantly asserting that this House ought to have control over its finance to show by their votes this afternoon that they disapprove of these Supplementary Estimates, and more especially of a Supplementary Estimate upon a Supplementary Estimate. I think they will also disapprove of the Government trying to evade the control which has always been maintained over public expenditure by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe reason for this extra vote of £4,000 is not so obscure as the bon. Baronet seems to think. It is due to two grants being necessary in order to put Bristol University and Durham University on the same footing as the other universities. Neither of those grants could have been foreseen, but it would have been most unfair in respect of both universities to have delayed grants justly due to them until after the end of the financial year. It was in order to put them on the same footing as other universities in respect of these grants that this Supplementary Estimate was put down. A grant has been made to Bristol where there was a university college which has been subsequently merged in the university, but it was made upon the express condition that £2,000 per year was not necessarily to be the permanent grant, and that it would not set up a vested interest should these grants be merged in the general grants to university colleges and universities for general education. The same considerations apply to the case of Durham University, the scientific side of which is a separate university college. It is absolutely necessary in order to do 2632 justice to these two localities that this Supplementary Estimate should be presented.
§ Lord HUGH CECILI am very glad the Government are giving money for the purpose of university education, but I regret it should continue to be the practice to give grants to the younger universities and not to the older universities. There are institutions connected with the University of Oxford like the Bodleian Library which are of national interest, and which might very well receive assistance from the National Exchequer. I shall not be able to vote with my hon. Friend if he persists in his Motion for a reduction, because, although I share his desire to see financial purity, and certainly agree in thinking the Comptroller and Auditor-General's authority should not be interfered with, yet the importance of university education and the desirability of furnishing funds for the purposes of it is so great that I should be sorry if anything was done to discourage the Government in the good path on which they have entered.
§ Lord A. THYNNEI regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not given the explanation for which my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) asked. He has referred to certain mysterious local circumstances which made it impossible for him to foresee this additional expense when he framed his original Estimates, but I should have thought if there was one matter capable of exact and precise calculation it would be a case of this sort, because the Bristol and Durham Universities, I presume, are not of sudden growth. It has been known for some time that they would be qualifying for grants of this character, and I should have thought that a little care on the part of the Treasury would have relieved them of the necessity of presenting any Supplementary Estimates at all, and certainly of presenting two consecutive Supplementary Estimates of this character. I should be the last to wish to see the accounts of the Bristol University examined in detail by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, but I deprecate this habit which is growing of withdrawing one item after another from the purview of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. I hope the House may be furnished, perhaps later in the afternoon with some explanation as to the basis on which these grants are made. These provincial universities are doing a very great work in the country, and some of us feel 2633 that the usefulness and the possible sphere of the Bristol University might be widened and very largely extended if they received more generous treatment.
§ Mr. ASHLEYThe right hon. Gentleman partially, but only partially, met the criticism of my hon. Friend. He told us there were local circumstances which prevented the Treasury from knowing beforehand whether these two universities would qualify, but he did not say a single word about the Supplementary Estimate in
§ November. I put it to the House whether we ought not to support my hon. Friend in his Motion as a protest, not so much against the Supplementary Estimate as against no explanation being given of this large Supplementary Estimate of £21,000. Surely, it was perfectly within the power of the Treasury to have foreseen that this would have been needed.
§ Question put, "That £4,000 stand part of the Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 171; Noes, 76.
2635| Division No. 72.] | AYES. | [2.25 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Goldstone, Frank | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Greig, Colonel James William | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Adamson, William | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Hackett, John | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. |
| Alden, Percy | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Hancock, John George | Pirie, Duncan Vernon |
| Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Price, Sir Robert J. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Barnes, George N. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Haworth, Arthur A. | Rainy, Adam Rolland |
| Beale, W. P. | Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Henry, Sir Charles S. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Benn, W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Bentham, G. J. | Higham, John Sharp | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Hills, John Waller | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Boland, John Plus | Hinds, John | Robinson, Sidney |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Brace, William | Holt, Richard Durning | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Rowlands, James |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | St. Maur, Harold |
| Bryce, John Annan | John, Edward Thomas | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Johnson, W. | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Shortt, Edward |
| Cameron, Robert | Joyce, Michael | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Kellaway, Frederick George | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Ciltheroe) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | King, Joseph (Somerset, North) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Lansbury, George | Soares, Ernest |
| Clyde, James Avon | Lewis, John Herbert | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Logan, John William | Tennant, Harold John |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lundon, Thomas | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Cory, Sir Clifford John | Lyell, Charles Henry | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Cotton, William Francis | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Crooks, William | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Crumley, Patrick | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) | M'Callum, John M. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Davies, M. Vaughen- (Cardigan) | M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Dawes, J. A. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Wardle, G. J. |
| Dillon, John | Markham, Arthur Basil | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Marks, George Croydon | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Duffy, William J. | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Masterman, C. F. G. | Webb, H. |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Molteno, Percy Alpert | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| Esslemont, George Birnle | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | White, Sir Luke (York E. R.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Mooney, John J. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Ferens, Thomas Robinson | Morgan, George Hay | Whyte, A. F. |
| Ffrench, Peter | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Furness, Stephen | Nolan, Joseph | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Gill, A. H. | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | |
| Glanville, Harold Jams | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Master of Elibank and Mr. Gulland. |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | O'Grady, James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Bigland, Alfred |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Balcarres, Lord | Bird, Alfred |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Barnston, H. | Burn, Colonel C. R. |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Campion, W. R. |
| Carlile, Edward Hildred | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Cassel, Felix | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Kerry, Earl of | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Stanier, Beville |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Swift, Rigby |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | Newman, John R. P. | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Fell, Arthur | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Fleming, Valentine | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Gretton, John | Paget, Almeric Hugh | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Perkins, Walter Frank | Younger, George |
| Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Peto, Basil Edward | |
| Hill, Sir Clement L. | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | |
| Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter | Rawson, Col. Richard H. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir F. Banbury and Mr. Ashley. |
| Hill-Wood, Samuel | Remnant, James Farquharson | |
| Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) | Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan |
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.