ARMY ORDNANCE FACTORIES.—SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1910

§ Mr. NEWMAN
From the Army Appropriation Account, page 11, which was presented to the House on 6th February, I see that there was a surplus of £70,909 10s. 9d. on the Ordnance Factories, which with the Suspense Account made a credit balance of £135,909. The maximum Suspense Account is not allowed to be more than £100,000, and, therefore, £35,000 went into the Treasury. That is a very handsome result. If the Ordnance Factories had been run as a business under the control of shareholders and directors I dare say £35,000 would have given a fat dividend for the shareholders and something in the way of a bonus for the employés in extra pay and salaries. I take it that the taxpayers, who are the shareholders, have got their dividend in the remission of taxation. Whether or not the employés have got their increase of salaries is another question which I cannot discuss now. I wish to ask, as 1909–10 was evidently a fat year, is 1910–11 going to be an equally fat year. As I read the Supplementary Estimate I do not think it is. We have Appropriations-in-Aid amounting to £175,000; deductions for the Army for repayments, £5,000; from the Army, £160,000; sale of old stores, etc., £10,000; then we have got to take from those totals the estimated deficiencies. Army, Indian Government, and Colonies, leaving £80,000, out of which we get a total net Supplementary Estimate of £100. I take it that round figure was put down in order to give gentlemen like myself the opportunity of asking questions and discussing the matter. That is my reason for rising to ask a little explanation as one interested in these Ordnance Factories. Are we to have another fat year for 1910 as fat as 1909 or not? If we are I trust the Financial Secretary will try to remember the employés as well as the shareholders. I hope that without moving the reduction standing in my name the Financial Secretary will be able to give me some information.

§ Mr. ACLAND
There is no question of a fat year in this matter. When money has to be either carried over in the Supplies 2620 Suspense Account or given back to the Treasury it only means that we have not succeeded in spending at the Ordnance Factories on the materials bought the amount which at the beginning of the year we thought and hoped we should succeed in spending. According to the Rules, it is absolutely necessary, whenever it is saved and wherever the actual expenditure for the year falls short of the estimated expenditure, that the balance shall automatically go back to the Treasury, which means that it goes automatically in the reduction of the National Debt. As to the item of £100, if the hon. Member would look at the Ordnance Factories Estimate he would find that the Estimate is always a token Estimate. The work done there is met entirely by charges from the different Departments, the War Office, the Admiralty, the Indian Government, and the Dominions, who are also purchasers. The whole expense is met by the purchases made in the course of the year. In putting down this token Vote for the Supplementary Estimate, we are only following the practice adopted with regard to Ordnance Factories. The reason for Supplementary Estimate is, I think, a very simple one. At the beginning of the year we thought that the Admiralty would be able to take over the torpedo factory at Greenock some months ago. As it turns out, they have not been able to take over the factory until now. Therefore to the extent of £80,000 of materials which they bought we assumed that they would be buying from their own torpedo factory moved to Greenock. They have, as a matter of fact, still obtained their materials from the Ordnance Factories, which appears in the Ordnance Factories Vote and not in a separate Vote of their own. That means that the Ordnance Factory at Woolwich had a cost of wages and materials of £80,000 more to meet for the stores purchased by the Admiralty for the factory during that time.

§ Mr. ASHLEY
The hon. Gentleman states that the reason that this £80,000 is required is that as there was delay in the torpedo factory at Greenock the Admiralty was unable to make arrangements early this year, as they had intended, and that the removal is now taking place. Will he inform us why the delay occurred? We are told that there has been delay owing to a miscalculation in some of the Government Departments—the War Office or the Admiralty, I do not know which— 2621 and we are not given the reason. If, as I think I read in the newspapers, the reason is that the Government were not able to provide proper dwellings for the working-men in as short a time as they hoped, then I have nothing more to say. I do think we ought to have some explanation before we vote this £80,000.

§ Mr. CROOKS
I agree with the hon. Member opposite that it is very difficult to find out how much of this Estimate belongs to the War Office and how much to the Admiralty. I do not know whether it is got up for the express purpose of bewildering hon. Members, but, at any rate, it has that effect. Some day, when the proper time comes, I shall ask the House to knock these two Departments into one, and then we shall know where we are.

§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara)
This Estimate is necessary because we are buying from the War Office material which we had expected to provide for ourselves. There has been some little delay due to various causes, of which housing for the men has been one. We have been careful to send the men down in small batches in order to meet the housing difficulty as far as possibe. We have sent down nearly 600, and there are very few still to go. No doubt there was difficulty in housing the men. They were very well off at Woolwich, but there was a shortage of accommodation for them at Greenock. In particular, they did not take kindly to the tenement system. I went down to see what sort of tenements they had gone into, and the Admiralty have now entered into arrangements with a Scottish garden suburb company, by which they guarantee a certain amount of rental and the company are to provide a number of dwelling houses at 8s. 6d. rental excluding rates. We guarantee, under conditions, rental up to £200 on account of houses empty. Sixteen of these houses must be ready by Whitsuntide, and the company will use every endeavour to have fifty ready by that time. There have also been difficulties with regard to the transference of machinery to Greenock. Perhaps the outstanding feature which will give the hon. Members opposite more satisfaction is that we do not anticipate any delay whatever in providing the necessary number of torpedoes for the Navy.

ARMY ORDNANCE FACTORIES.—SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1910–11.