§ Motion made, and Question proposed,
§ 3. "That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £585, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1911, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Public Record Office, Ireland, and of the Keeper of State Papers,. Dublin."
§ Mr. BARNESI have no desire to oppose this vote except that I am sorry to see so large a Supplementary Estimate as this when compared with the original Estimate, and I think we are entitled to-some information as to how this money is being spent. In the original Estimate-we have particulars given in detail as to the purposes for which the money is required, but I think this supplementary sum, which amounts to 10 per cent. upon the original Estimate, is a large item to-ask the Committee to pass without some further information as to how it is to be spent and why it is necessary to spend such a large sum.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Redmond Barry)The expenditure is necessitated owing to the large increase of work due to the extension of the Old Age Pensions Act to persons hitherto disqualified by the receipt of poor law relief. As a consequence of new claims for pensions the Inland Revenue authorities had had 41,000 references to make at the Record Office during the third quarter of the financial year with a view to ascertaining the ages of applicants. Formally the average number of references did not exceed 12,000. To cope with that a number of new clerks and of assistants had to be employed. The older clerks in the office had to be employed for a greater number of hours. In all there were now employed on the work ten second division clerks and supplementary clerks, seven men and boy clerical assistants, four temporary workmen searchers, four temporary workmen, one housemaid, at a total weekly cost of £43. No provision was made for this in original expenditure, and this additional expenditure was absolutely necessary.
§ Mr. C. CRAIGI cannot carry in my mind the list of additional officials which the right hon. Gentleman has just read out. I take it, however, that the number of temporary clerks whose services were necessary will only be utilised until this rush of business is over.
§ Mr. REDMOND BARRYSo I understand.
§ Mr. C. CRAIGI would like to have it made clear that this number is only temporary, and that a new Estimate corresponding to this will not be again necessary. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned ten second-class clerks. Are we to understand they are not the ordinary permanent staff of the Department, and that this sum of £585 is to cover the expenses of these purely temporary clerks. At any rate I want the right hon. Gentleman to say if he is able to assure us that this sum will not appear again as a Supplementary Estimate upon the ordinary Estimate, and that as soon as this rush of business is over this amount will not appear in future.
§ Mr. MALCOLMMay I ask why is it that this Estimate comes up at all under the Vote for the Public Record Office, and not for the Local Government Board We have not got any similar item for searches in connection with old age pensions in England, where we pay about £9,000,000, and I imagine if we had it would not be on a Vote for the Public Record Office, but probably would be put down to the Local Government Board. I do not understand why it comes up here in connection with the Public Record Office. I would also like to know what this question of searching is, and why, if there are such searches in Ireland there are none in England?
§ Mr. REDMOND BARRYCertificates in connection with old age pensions have to be examined. The Inland Revenue authorities have always come to the Record Office, but these searches only amounted to about 12,000 in former years, whereas for this financial year the number has reached 41,000. In reply to what the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Charles Craig) says the services of the temporary clerks will be dispensed with as soon as the work is dealt with and completed. I did intend to convey that some of the existing clerks are included in this item because they have to be employed at overtime, and, of course, they will be restored to their ordinary condition as soon as this extra work is disposed of. The expenditure is of a temporary character.
§ Lord HUGH CECILThat does not altogether answer the question, that whereas the expenditure on old age pensions in England is enormously greater than in Ireland there is no Supplementary Estimate asked for for searches in the 890 Public Record Office here, whereas there is in Ireland.
§ Mr. BIRRELLIt is due to the fact that in Ireland people of that age cannot obtain any certificate of birth, and the only way to prove, or at any rate, to disprove, their claim is by very careful and difficult searching of the Census of 1841 and of 1851. This increase from 12,000 to 41,000 is due to the necessity for the searching of the Census.
§ Lord HUGH CECILIt seems a most stupendous difference that this sum is expended in making one kind of search.
§ Mr. BIRRELLThere are two kinds of searches—the search in the Census of 1841 and in 1851.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANWhy was this expenditure not anticipated? It must have been known beforehand?
§ Mr. BIRRELLOwing to the infirmities of human nature, I suppose. The Chancellor of the Exchequer never supposed there would be such a large number of pensions in Ireland.
§ Mr. MALCOLMAs I understand it, what happens is the certificates in most cases are sent up by the parish priest and then an inquiry has to be made and the Census searched. I know a great many places where that has happened, and I have myself undertaken searches with the village priest to try and ascertain the ages of these old people. They believe they are over seventy and entitled to their pension, and then comes the further order to make searches through the Census, and it is for this that the extra charge is really made.