§ Mr. DANIEL BOYLEasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware of the hardships inflicted on a number of persons over seventy years of age in Ireland by being deprived of the benefits of the Old Age Pension Act owing to their inability, 1262 through no fault of their own, to produce documentary proof of age; and is he prepared to recommend and carry into effect such changes, either in the Act or in its administrative machinery, as will enable such persons to come within the benefits of the Act?
§ Mr. BIRRELLNo persons are deprived of the benefits of the Old Age Pensions Act merely owing to the fact that they cannot produce documentary evidence of age. Any satisfactory evidence—whether documentary or otherwise—that a claimant has attained the statutory age is received, and it would not be possible to dispense with evidence on that point.
§ Mr. DANIEL BOYLEasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland why the old age pension claim of Patrick Smyth, Mullabawney, Attymass, county Mayo, has been disallowed on appeal by the Local Government Board, although six times sanctioned by the Ballina pensions committee; if disallowed on the grounds of income, what are the items constituting the income of the claimant as arrived at by the Local Government Board; for what reasons do the Local Government Board refuse to inform pensions committees how calculations as to claimant's incomes are arrived at by the Board; and whether he will endeavour to arrange an understanding between the Local Government Board and county pensions committees on this question, so as to remove the cause of many appeals and of much friction and misunderstanding in the administration of the Act?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Local Government. Board have on four occasions disallowed a claim of Patrick Smyth to a pension on the ground that his means exceeded the statutory limit. The case was specially investigated by one of the Board's inspectors, who on visiting the farm found three cows, two calves, a yearling bullock, two pigs, and about a score of fowl. A cow and the bullock were alleged, however, by claimant's wife to be the property of her younger son. The crops consisted of one acre of potatoes, one acre of oats, two roods of hay, and one rood of turnips. The Board would find it quite impossible to enter into a correspondence with all the pension committees throughout Ireland as to the basis of calculation of the income of every claimant in whose case an appeal is lodged on the ground of means. As the appeal is from the decision of the Pension Committee to the Board, their decisions must be based on independent consi- 1263 derations and calculations, and not upon any agreement or understanding with the committees whose decisions they are required to review.
§ Mr. GINNELLasked, having regard to the decision of the Delvin old age pension sub-committee, supported by the declaration of a person seventy-eight years of age, that Thomas Smyth, pension appeal X1419, is entitled to a pension, and the absence of his name from the Census Returns and the parish register, for which he is not responsible, whether the Irish Local Government Board can have the claimant visited by an inspector to judge of his age?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe declaration referred to is a statement on oath of a belief that Thomas Smyth is over seventy years of age. The claimant himself did not know the date of his birth nor did he furnish any evidence of age, and he could not be traced in either Census Return. The Board determined on the 3rd July that Smyth was not entitled to a pension, and the question of sending an inspector to visit him can therefore only arise in the event of the case coming before the Board again on appeal.
§ Mr. GINNELLWill the right hon. Gentleman suggest any method by which a person over seventy years of age can obtain a pension, if his name is not in the Census Return or on the parish register; and will he accept the affidavit of an older person than the claimant?
§ Mr. BIRRELLCertainly. Sometimes the affidavits of older persons are accepted when they disclose means of knowledge which are sufficient to satisfy a man of ordinary intelligence. I am quite willing to give anybody the benefit of the doubt as to being over seventy years of age, but the hon. Member starts by assuming that a person is over seventy years of age, and then asks me what evidence I would take of that fact. I would consider any evidence as to a person being over seventy years of age, only there must be some evidence that the person making the affidavit has particular sources of information which may be satisfactory or may be entirely worthless.
§ Mr. GINNELLWill the right hon. Gentleman in this or similar cases consider affidavits presented by older persons than the claimants?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI will consider the affidavit of any older person who has had an opportunity of judging, and shows in his affidavit the reasons why a person may be regarded as being over seventy years of age.
§ Sir JOHN LONSDALEasked if the Chief Secretary can state the reason why the Reverend S. H. Orr, Protestant clergyman, of Dungloe, has been removed, without explanation, from the old age pensions committee of the Dungloe district; if he is aware that this committee now consists of six Roman Catholic clergy and three Roman Catholic laymen, and has not a single Protestant upon it; and if he will make representations on the subject to the Donegal County Council?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI have no power in this matter, as the appointment of a pension sub-committee rests with the local pension committee for the county, which is a committee appointed by the county council.
§ Sir J. LONSDALEDoes the right hon. Gentleman consider that a fortnight's absence on holiday justifies the reverend gentleman's removal from the committee on which he had been a most useful member and most regular in attendance?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI do not know the particular circumstances of the case, but in connection with these sub-committees the members are appointed by the county council for a particular period, and on the effluxion of that period they cease to be members. I can only presume that the effluxion of time happened during the reverend gentleman's holiday, and that, not because he was away, but because his time of office had already expired, somebody else was appointed in his place.
§ Mr. MacNEILLHaving regard to the religious intolerance which is shown in this question, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two out of the four members, including myself, for this division are Protestants closely connected with Irish Protestant families?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI have no doubt that is so. I understand the complaint was that this Protestant clergyman was excluded from the committee. That is not altogether met by the hon. Member's being a good Protestant.
Mr. KELLYIs it not the fact that this gentleman was removed from the pension committee at his own request, and that 1265 the reason why he requested to be removed was that in his opinion, and that of his own co-religionists, they were not interested in the pension question, as they constituted something less than 2 per cent. of the population of this union?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI do not know, but it is inconsistent with the letter I received.
§ Mr. DAWESasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the case of Charlotte Fiveash, an old age pensioner, who about three weeks since was obliged through illness to enter the West Ham infirmary, and was thereupon compelled to hand her pension book to the collector for the West Ham guardians with an authority to collect the pension, which he has done, and applied the pension to the maintenance of the pensioner in relief of the rates; whether the local pension officer has applied to the guardians for the surrender of the pension book and has been refused; and whether he will give instructions to the guardians that if the case is a chronic one the book must be 'given up, and, if not, the pensioner is entitled, on leaving the infirmary, to all arrears of her pension?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEI find on inquiry that the pension officer has not applied to the guardians for the surrender of Charlotte Fiveash's book of pension orders. I understand that the pension is being drawn by an officer of the guardians as agent, in pursuance of an authority given him from time to time by the pensioner herself. So far as the law and regulations are concerned, there is no obligation on the pensioner to give such an authority; but in any case the agent is required on each occasion of drawing an instalment of pension to give an undertaking that he will at once pay the money over to the pensioner. The local pension officer has been instructed to call the agent's attention to this fact.