PENSIONS (GOVERNORS OF DOMINIONS, ETC.) [EXPENSES.] (Hansard, 12 July 1911)

§ Mr. CLYNES
I cannot understand why so many Members of this House should sit quiet whilst this Bill is being passed, and I feel bound to make a few observations in opposition to the proposal. The Bill, if it passes this House, will certainly not tend to accentuate the constitutional crisis, for it is obviously a measure that would be welcomed in and passed by the House of Lords. I am more astonished that it should be brought in by the present Government. It gives certain individuals a substantial increase in their individual pensions. The present maximum is £1,000 a year. This Bill would have the effect of increasing the maximum to £1,300. There are provisions in the Bill also enabling One of those retired officials to receive two or three pensions at the one time, so long as the gross total of the number of pensions does not exceed £1,300. I put it to 457 the House whether, after ten, fifteen or twenty years' service in the Colonial Governments on the strength of such salaries as these governors usually receive, they are in want of a pension of so high an amount as £24 a week on their retirement? Of course, they will not be all at that level. The pension may be as high as £l,300 or it may be down to £250 in the lower cases. But that would mean on the higher scale a Colonial governor would get as a pension, after the long enjoyment of a considerable salary, as much as we pay to 1,000 old age pensioners, who have great difficulty in proving their claims to pensions under the existing Old Age Pensions Act. I am not prepared to give a highly salaried officer as much pension as we give to 1,000 of the industrial population of this country, who are compelled to wait until they reach seventy years of age.
The old industrial worker must wait until he is seventy for his few shillings of a pension, but this Bill proposes to give Colonial governors a pension of £24 a week at the age of sixty. Nay, indeed, more than that, it proposes to give them a pension without regard to age. There is no fixed age limit in the Bill for the receipt of these excessive pensions. On retirement due to ill health, or infirmity of mind or body, or because of the termination of his office, in any of these cases the ex-Colonial governor may come and receive this extravagant yearly allowance. Some Colonial governors who have retired and have come back here to active political service again, have not distinguished themselves by sympathy with the pensions claimed for the aged poor of this country. I am not aware that this Bill affects the present governor of the Isle of Man, I think it does not, but in that case we have seen how a governor has done much to prevent the institution of pensions for the aged poor in that island. Further, the speeches which we have had delivered in the House of Lords and in the country by other retired governors of our Colonies and other Dominions have shown that these ex-governors are not entitled to any sympathy and certainly not to the inordinate and excessive pensions which are allowed by this Act. At present an industrial worker may be compelled by industrial conditions to retire when he is fifty. We have heard of men being too old at forty. His retirement is practically compulsory owing to the industrial conditions and the pressure of his industry. Yet if he is retired by that compulsion at fifty he must wait another twenty years before he comes upon 458 the State for his few shillings a week. Lastly, I observe in the Bill the condition that the Secretary of State is to have absolute personal power in fixing all these pensions with the approval of the Treasury. When he has granted a pension a Minute stating the reason for granting it is to be laid before Parliament. I want to know what is the value of that part of the Bill, Sub-section (2) of Clause 1, which declares that the decision of the Secretary of State confirmed by the Treasury shall be final.

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Whitley)
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is quite aware that this is not the Second Heading of the Bill, but simply the Report stage of a Money Resolution upon which the Bill is to be founded. Whilst the hon. Gentleman would be quite in order in asking any questions upon this Resolution he is now making a speech which would be more suitable for Second Reading.

§ Mr. CLYNES
An earlier ruling such as you have given would have prevented me from making the observation which I have addressed to the House. I was at the point of concluding by asking the question what is the meaning of this particular Subsection which states that the decision of the Secretary of State confirmed by the Treasury with respect to the claim of any person to pensions under this Act shall be final. If the decision of the Secretary of State is to be final, what is the value of the other portion of the Bill which declares that information should be laid before this House presumably with the idea of discussion. I am glad I have been able to offer this general protest, which I think should be made in respect of this Bill.

§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hobhouse)
The opening remarks of the hon. Gentleman showed how profoundly he misconceived the purposes of this Bill. He began by saying that this Bill would be welcomed by the House of Lords. This Bill does not touch any Member of the House of Lords; it only touches hard-worked Civil servants, and if the hon. Member will only look at the Bill he will see that no one could draw a pension until he has served ten years as a Colonial Governor. What I think the hon. Gentleman has in his mind is the case of Governors selected like Sir John Fuller from among Members of this House to go abroad. This Bill does not cover persons occupying the position of 459 Governors such as that, and it does not qualify anyone for a pension until he has served a certain period.

§ Mr. SNOWDEN
How is the distinction drawn in the Bill?

§ Mr. HOBHOUSE
If the hon. Gentle-man will look at the Bill he will see that no person can draw a pension unless he has served ten years. What often happens in the case of Gentlemen from this House going out as Governors is that they serve four, five, or six years. They serve one term of governorship and do not serve a second. I know of no exception to that rule.

§ Mr. BOOTH
I understood you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to give a ruling that we are not now discussing the Bill.

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
The hon. Gentleman is quite right, but the Financial Secretary is, of course, replying to the points raised by the hon. Member (Mr. Clynes) before I gave my ruling. I do think it desirable that these matters should be referred to a later stage of the Bill, and that this should be treated as a money Resolution.

§ Mr. WATT
I beg to call attention to the fact that forty Members are not present.

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
The House cannot be counted between a quarter-past eight and a quarter-past nine.

§ Mr. HOBHOUSE
This Bill does not apply to Governors, such as I have indicated, and does not bear upon the case put by the hon. Member. I think that answers all the points raised by the hon. Member, and I would point out this further: that as regards the maximum rate of pension, it is true that the maximum rate under the Bill is £l,300. The maximum rate at present may go up to £1,100 or £1,200, so that the increase on any particular case cannot be more than £100, and the total variation of the whole charge will not be more than 5 per cent. up or 5 per cent. down. Therefore the charge imposed upon the Exchequer by the Bill is really infinitesimal.

§ Mr. CLYNES
Is not the present limit £1,000, and does not this Bill give the maximum of £l,300, making in certain cases a difference of £300?

§ Mr. HOBHOUSE
The present maximum is £l,000, plus other pensions—that makes it between £1,100 and £l,200. The present Bill includes all other pensions, and leaves it at £1,300.