§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked (1) whether any calculations have been made to show that the reserve values of spinsters on marriage will, after accumulation during marriage, suffice for the reinsurance at original rates of widows who subsequently become employed persons; and whether these reserve values at date of marriage can be published, together with any data as to the probability of subsequent re-entry into the scheme; (2) whether, from the calculations made in connection with the National Insurance Bill, he can state, even approximately, what is the calculated average age at marriage of insured spinsters; what proportion of those originally insured become widows, divorced, or legally separated, and at what average age; what proportion of these widows, divorced, or legally separated would ultimately become employed persons within the meaning of the first part of the National Insurance Bill; and what proportion of these females ultimately remarry; and (3) whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention has been drawn to the desire of the Manchester Unity of Odd fellows that a supplementary report as to certain matters should be obtained from the Government actuaries; and whether he intends to meet the wishes of that society in this respect?
§ Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALDasked if there are figures available to show the proportion of widows who return to industry?
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSasked (1) what are the estimated average amounts required in each of the fifteen years after the passing of the National Insurance Bill to provide the difference between the reserve values referred to in Clause 36 (2) (re) of the Bill initially credited to the separate account and the transfer values which will be required on discharge of the men to civil life referred to in Clause 36 (3); and (2) if the Chancellor of the Exchequer will publish the data, as supplied by the War Office and the Admiralty to Messrs. Hardy and Wyatt, containing the number and ages of the men in the Army and Navy who will come within the provisions of Clause 36 of the National Insurance Bill?
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked whether any calculations have been made 963 showing that the suspension of insurance to spinsters on marriage according to the National Insurance Bill will suffice, after accumulation during marriage, to provide the necessary reserves for those who subsequently become widows and resume their insurance as employed persons; and, if so, will he lay those calculations upon the Table of the House?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThese questions all relate to actuarial information, and the hon. Members have been good enough to postpone them from previous days at my request. As my hon. Friend, one of my colleagues on the Board of Treasury, stated in reply to the hon. Member for Salisbury on the 26th June, I shall be glad to obtain for the information of the House any further actuarial calculations which are likely to be of material value for the purposes of the discussion of the Bill and for which there is a desire among any considerable body of Members of the House. But, having regard to the great amount of time and labour involved in actuarial calculations and to the necessity for all the subsidiary calculations being entrusted to the same actuaries who made the original report, I think it most important that the calculations undertaken should be strictly limited to those which satisfy the conditions to which I have referred. I would suggest that hon. Members who have put down questions of this character should see me privately on the subject, and I should in that case be very glad to discuss the matter with a view to agreeing upon the information which it is most desirable to obtain.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSAs regards the questions I have put down, may I ask whether the actuaries have not already got that information, and how they can possibly have made the calculations for Clause 36 without them?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe same thing applies to the questions put down by the hon. Gentleman as to others. It is not a question of whether or not we have got the information. Most of the questions present these matters in a different form from that on which the actuaries have made their calculations. We have really got the material, but, after all, we have only got two actuaries who have to be personally responsible for the answers. I suggest that in those circumstances it is quite impossible for them to be responsible. It is far better, that these things should 964 be discussed in the first instance with a view to ascertaining which are the figures to which the House attaches importance. It is quite impossible for the actuaries to answer every question, put by hon. Members. There ought to be some understanding as regards the general character of the questions. May I also point out that I suggested two months ago that there should be a conference between the various sections of the House and the Government in reference to suggestions for amendments, and the actuaries would be present to answer all questions put to them by hon. Members. I made that proposal two months ago, and although I have repeated it over and over again, there has been no response up to the present time.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI suppose I would be out of order in following the right hon. Gentleman, but I ask him whether he will publish the data which has already been supplied by the War Office and Admiralty, and whether in view of the fact that this cannot entail any calculations upon the actuaries, he cannot publish the data now?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI am in a position to publish it, but I want to point out that before I decide I should like to know to which of the questions the House attaches importance. I think it would be far better to publish the information in the form of a Paper rather than by question and answer across the floor of the House, because it would involve lengthy answers. Therefore, I still adhere to my suggestion that it would be far better to have a conference.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he remembers that I have boon asking for information during the last week?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe hon. Gentleman is not the only Member of the House who has been asking for information of this kind, and I have suggested that hon. Members should come to some sort of agreement with regard to the points upon which they require information.
§ Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALDWith reference to the question which I have put down, is it not a fact that it raises one of the most important questions under the Bill, and may I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how he imagines we can come, and meet him and discuss things with him if we have no information?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI do not think my hon. Friend understood the answer which I gave. It had reference to the supply of information in the first instance, and not to discussion. My suggestion was that hon. Members should agree first of all upon the character of the questions with regard to which they want information. It is perfectly obvious that we cannot give answers to fifty actuarial questions with only two actuaries to deal with them. I suggest to my hon. Friend and to hon. Members opposite that they should come to my room, and that they should agree upon the questions on which they want information.