§ Motion made and Question proposed: (1) "That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £1,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1911, for Expenditure in respect of Royal Palaces."
MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEWhile I do not wish to delay the proceedings of the Committee there is one point I would like to mention with regard to Holyrood Palace. On behalf of all the Scottish Members I may say that we are all extremely gratified at the reason for hurrying on the preparations for repairing the palace. It is an extreme gratification not only to the Scottish Members but to the Scottish people in general that His Majesty is about to visit them after the Coronation, and if we have got any complaint at all it is only that his visit is going to be so short. I notice in clause D, redecorations, "sanitary work, installation of electric light, paid on account, £300." I think that anyone who has the appearance of this old building at heart must always be uneasy when he sees the word redecorations, and I should like the Junior Lord of the Treasury to explain to us what he means by redecorations and what exactly is going on in one of the most historic buildings in the country. The old portions of it are not only of great historic interest but also of great esthetic beauty, and we should be very sorry to see anything done that would mar the beauty of those parts of the palace. Therefore I would like to know who is looking after this æsthetic side of the work. 1443 We have in Scotland very good judges of these matters, among them great architects, the President of the Scottish Academy, and men of very well known good taste, whom we trust; but I hope those representing the Government will not think me rude when I say that we do not necessarily trust all things connected with our Royal palaces in Scotland to be carried out in England. There are certain other parts of the palace which I believe might well be redecorated. The last time any scheme of decoration other than the present was carried out was when her late Majesty Queen Victoria and the Prince Consort visited Scotland. On that occasion part of Holyrood Palace was furnished, and the fact has been a matter of regret to the whole of Scotland ever since. We sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman noticed—no doubt he did—this fact on the last occasion he visited the Palace, and that he will do something to wipe out what is a decided eyesore in this Royal Palace of Scotland. Then there is the question of the sanitation of Holyrood. Hon. Members will remember quite well that a few years ago the question of sanitation was raised by the late Lord Leven and Melville. A great deal was said with regard to it, and the system of sanitation was found to be totally inadequate, although it was supposed to have been carefully altered since 1872. I do not know what happened before that. In 1904, when the Unionists were in power, an hon. Member for Perthshire asked if the Palace was fit for human beings to live in. The reply was that the repairs to the drainage of Holyrood Palace were completed, and that an independent authority had pronounced the building to be in a sound and habitable condition. In May, 1903, we received a similar assurance which I should have read first. The present Duke of Devonshire in this House stated that the sanitary works were completed, and that the Palace was a perfectly suitable residence for the Sovereign. In April, 1903, Lord Windsor, replying to a question in the House of Lords, said he was well assured that the sums voted for Holyrood Palace would be sufficient to make the whole drainage and water supply system thoroughly effective and good. Very large Estimates, I think, were passed then.
But my point really is, whether the drainage of Holyrood Palace can be put right, and how long we are going to be 1444 in passing the Estimates to put it right. We do not object to the Vote in the least. We want to know if it is sufficient, and to have some undertaking from the Government that the matter is carried out in such a way that in future the only money required will be that which is necessary to maintain the system of drainage in proper repair. I should like a distinct assurance from the right hon. Gentleman on that point; as also, whether the expert who is at present engaged is an independent outside expert, a man of repute; and whether the light hon. Gentleman can state, so far as it is proper for him to do so, that this is the last capital expenditure which will be required for this work, and that further expenditure will be only such as may be required to keep it in order. A further point is as to the electric lighting. Perhaps the Government will tell us what the present electric light installation 1s. So far as I remember there is an electric light installation in that part of the Palace which is occupied by the High Commissioner. We would like to know whether the electric light is to be used throughout the whole Palace. I do not say for one moment that we do not trust the Members of the Government charged with these matters, but the people of Scotland have so many palaces, of which they are rather proud, that they are anxious to preserve them from ruin, and to rest assured that the electric light will be installed with due regard to the safety of the building and with freedom from risk of fires such as we have lately heard of. We should be glad if the representative of the Government on this occasion can give us his opinion as to what he thinks is the safest system. All I want is that the perhaps somewhat sceptical people of Scotland may be reassured on these points. If a satisfactory answer is given now it may save a great deal of newspaper correspondence hereafter. We are anxious that the sanitary and other arrangements of Holyrood Palace should be put on a proper and sound basis, and in saying that I think I express the view of Scottish Members opposite.
§ Sir FREDERICK BANBURYI entirely associate myself with what has been said by the Noble Lord, and all of us on this side of the House are only to anxious to spend what is necessary on the repairs of Holyrood Palace. Of course, the question is what expenditure is necessary, and as to that there may be a divergence of opinion. I have never visited Holyrood 1445 Palace, which may be my misfortune, but I believe it is one of the finest examples of palaces in Scotland. I am quite sure that everyone of us would be only too delighted to see Holyrood Palace kept in proper repair, and made a suitable place in which to receive the King upon the occasion of his visit to Scotland, where I am very glad that His Majesty will spend part of his time. Apart from Holyrood Palace, or other matters, I wish to go into the question of finance. I remember, when I sat on the back benches opposite, hearing the present Prime Minister, when in Opposition, speaking of Supplementary Estimates as extremely wrong, as showing careless and unbusinesslike finance, and as exhibiting what is now generally called "sloppiness." I recollect thinking that when the right hon. Gentleman and his party got into power I should not have the opportunity of getting up in this House and objecting to "sloppy" finance. My hopes have been dashed to the ground, and I find that instead of setting up business methods, such as would appeal to the hon. Member for Hackney, the right hon. Gentleman comes forward, and not only repeats all the errors which he attributed to my party, but accentuates them. In this particular case a good surveyor ought to have been able to determine what the works would cost. We had a Supplementary Estimate of £9,355 on 12th July last, and now we have another on top of that, so that this Government of pure business habits is actually breaking the record by bringing in two Supplementary Estimates on a small matter such as this. The Supplementary Estimate of £9,335 is 150 per cent. more than the original. In this further Estimate of £1,300 there is a sum of £300 for redecoration, sanitary works, and installation of electric light, and it has now occurred to somebody that Holyrood Palace might want to be heated. I should like some explanation as to the heating apparatus. In an interesting article which I read recently it was stated that one of the great causes of fire to old country houses was the installation of heating apparatus, because it dried the air and caused the old woodwork to become like tinder. I hope the hon. Gentleman has devoted his mind to this, for, after all, we pay him a salary. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I think that is a very great mistake. I hope the hon. Gentleman will see that arrangements are made to guard against the possibility of fire. I hope I 1446 will get a satisfactory answer, and if not then I shall have to take further steps.
§ Mr. MALCOLMAs to this item of £300, are we to understand that that is in connection with the Coronation festivities in Scotland. I notice that there are some Levées to be held. I think the people of Scotland would be very anxious to know how long it is expected His Majesty will be staying in Scotland, and at Holyrood. The expenditure on Holyrood Palace is one of those things that always puzzled me. It is never quite enough for a Royal Palace, and it is a great deal too much for a museum. The reason perhaps for this extra expenditure is perhaps that His Majesty is to make a longer stay than some of us had anticipated in Scotland. I also desire to know if the Office of Works is in communication with those promoting the National Memorial to the late King which I see is going to take the form of a gateway outside Holyrood Palace. Perhaps this may not be exactly the right moment to offer an observation on that subject, but I do think, seeing how grand a National Memorial Holyrood is, that the hon. Gentleman should be in the closest possible communication with the body who are getting up the Memorial to the late King, to see that nothing is done to injure or impair the old National Monument of which the people of Scotland are so proud.
§ Mr. GRETTONWith regard to Holyrood Palace, may I ask whether the sanitary alterations are on such a scale that it will be reasonable to use the place as a Royal residence again? On two recent occasions when the question was raised, the Palace was reported upon and I am informed that owing to its extremely defective sanitary arrangements it was not fit to be used as a Royal residence. Further, most lamentable accidents have occurred in old houses through the installation of modern new-fangled heating apparatus, absolutely unsuitable for the purpose. Old buildings are full of old timber, and shortly after the heating apparatus has been turned on, smouldering fires have in some cases been discovered, and valuable national monuments destroyed. In my own neighbourhood a case of that kind occurred. The first night the new apparatus was used, one of the finest old buildings in the Midland Counties took fire and was burned down. The greatest possible care ought to be taken also in 1447 installing the electric light in these old buildings, as the wires are apt to fuse. Though an Englishman, I take a pride in Holyrood Palace, and I should be most alarmed if alterations are made which might destroy its historic beauty or endanger its existence.
The TREASURER of the HOUSEHOLD (Mr. Dudley Ward)I am glad to give the Noble Lord (Marquess of Tullibardine) the assurance he requires. The work at Holy rood Palace is being carried out under the supervision of a gentlemtn of Scottish pedigree, who, I am sure, is just as jealous as the Noble Lord of the decorations of Holyrood Palace.
§ 1.0 P.M.
Mr. DUDLEY WARDBut the Noble Lord suggested that possibly the work might be carried out by an Englishman who had not sufficient regard for Scottish susceptibilities in the matter of decoration. He is wrong on that point. The decoration is not in what are called historical parts of the palace, but merely in the residential parts, and the money for which I am asking is more for lighting and sanitary work than for decoration. What redecoration there is is papering and painting. When the work of rewiring was begun, difficulties were experienced which could not possibly have been foreseen. The walls are very thick and a great deal harder to work than had been anticipated; consequently, a certain amount more money is required. That, too, is really the reason why the heating work has been begun now. It was found that the work of wiring for the electric light was attended with such difficulties that a great deal of money would be saved if the pipes for heating, which would certainly be required in the near future, were put in at the same time as the wires for the electric light. With regard to the system of electric lighting adopted, I do not know exactly what it is called, but the wires pass through a thin tubing with a view to making the risk of fire as small as possible. The hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) asked why there was a Supplementary Estimate on a Supplementary Estimate. The Supplementary Estimate in July was asked for in consequence of the decision of the present King to go to Holyrood. There had been no arrangement of that 1448 kind before the present King's accession, and a Supplementary Estimate was asked for at the earliest moment in order to put the Palace in a fit condition for the King's reception. The work has turned out more difficult and expensive than was estimated, and so we are asking for another £300 on that account. It is very necessary to undertake some system of heating the palace, not only because it is a very cold place indeed, but also to preserve the pictures, furniture, and tapestries, which are of great value. They have not been preserved as well as they ought to have been. The heating has been by means of open grates, which are very unsuitable, and it has been difficult, almost impossible, to keep these objects as dry as they ought to have been kept.
MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEIs anything to be done in the way of better furnishing the upstairs rooms, which were inhabited by Queen Victoria?
§ Sir F. BANBURYI should like to congratulate the hon. Member on the excellent manner in which he has answered our questions. He has made one of those conciliatory speeches which nearly always turn away the wrath of opponents. But, although he was so courteous, his answer is not altogether satisfactory. I asked why there was a Supplementary Estimate upon a Supplementary Estimate, and his answer was that Holyrood had never been used as a Royal Palace, that it was going to be used as such, that certain alterations had to be carried out, and that then they found that the estimate was wrong. But if the estimate had not been wrong there would have been no Supplementary Estimate, so that really the reply was no answer to the question. Why was the Estimate wrong in July? It was not a large Estimate, some £4,000, and any good surveyor could have come somewhere near the mark. You cannot walk about London without seeing new Government offices being put up, and, at all events, this Department ought to know something about building. I think the hon. Gentleman said the walls were harder than they thought. [An HON. MEMBER: "Thicker."] No, the hon. Gentleman had thought it out, and said "harder" not "thicker," for that would have given me an opportunity to ask why the walls were not measured! I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his 1449 acuteness. But surely the hon. Gentleman must know that everything in Scotland is hard, including the walls? I do not think the answer is a very satisfactory one. But I do not propose to divide the House upon it, as it is the hon. Gentleman's first Vote, if he will tell us that in the future he will see whether the walls are harder or thicker when alterations are made.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI would like to ask the Junior Lord of the Treasury whether he can really assure the Committee that Holyrood Palace has now been made perfectly habitable for all times of the year, and that we shall not have further Estimates on this account. If the Government policy is to prevail within the next few years there is reason why Holyrood Palace should be made a proper permanent residence for winter and summer in a way worthy of its ancient traditions. The other day it was intimated to us by the Prime Minister, with less obscurity than is usual in his utterances, that very shortly there would be a whole scheme of local self-government on the Colonial model. Everyone of the——
§ The CHAIRMANThat certainly does not arise on Supplementary Estimates.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI was only pointing out that in the future there would be a use for the Palace as a Royal residence if the Government policy is to prevail—a use that there has not been for many years past, and which there is not at present. But I will leave that point for the Junior Lord to consider. No doubt he will give us the assurance asked for, that the work will now be completely done and the Palace fitted up as a permanent residence. Another matter, how is it that a Junior Lord is in charge of these Estimates? He is not responsible. The Estimates have the name on them of "C. Hobhouse"?
§ The CHAIRMANThat question is not in order.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEAm I not in order, Mr. Emmott, in calling attention to the absence of the Secretary to the Treasury? In my experience of ten years as a Member of Parliament, I think on Supplementary Estimates the Secretary to the Treasury, has always been in charge. Of course, the House welcomes the Junior Lord, and is very glad to see him discharge his duties with so much ability and courtesy.
§ The CHAIRMANThat question does not arise. The hon. Member has no right 1450 to say who shall reply on any Vote on behalf of the Government.
§ Lord HUGH CECILOn a point of Order, Mr. Emmott, is it not a more convenient course for the Government to have a Minister in charge of the Vote, and not one who is not able to answer with authority on any financial point? Of course, it is possible that the hon. Gentleman may not be acquainted with finance, or the financial aspect of some of these questions. Surely we may expect that the Minister who is really in charge of this financial business shall be here if necessary. I remember that it used to be the ease that the Financial Secretary was here when this business was on—not every minute, perhaps, but mostly. I do not understand why he should not be present to-day?
§ The CHAIRMANThe Noble Lord knows that over and over again it has been held that this question of who is to reply cannot be raised in Committee of Supply so long as a Minister appointed for that purpose is present.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYIs it not within the competence of hon. Members to call attention to the absence of Ministers?
§ The CHAIRMANIt is not in order on a discussion on the Estimates to discuss the question of what Minister is to reply. If no Minister were here it might be possible to raise the point, but, as a Minister appointed by the Government is here to reply on these Estimates, this question as to whether somebody else ought, or ought not, to be here as well, does not arise.
§ Lord HUGH CECILI remember a case in which, under similar circumstances, I moved to report Progress, and the Motion was accepted. The late Mr. Hanbury was then Financial Secretary, and he was very angry with his colleagues because one of them was not present. In this case the matter is under the Office of Works, and a Junior Lord of the Treasury has neither financial authority nor authority as Minister of Works. I really do not understand what particular advantage there is in having a Minister present unless——
§ The CHAIRMANThe Noble Lord is disregarding my ruling. I am aware of oases such as the Noble Lord referred to when a Motion was made to report Progress. The question does not arise now.
Sir GILBERT PARKERI want to ask a question which has been asked, but not, 1451 I think, been clearly answered. It has been asked whether Holyrood Palace, after the renovations and improvements now being made, will be fit for a Royal residence; or for the use of anyone representing Royalty, not temporarily, but for a considerable period to come? Holyrood Palace is an extremely interesting place, and is of value for use, and not only for ornament. The Committee ought to know exactly what its use is to be. It would be a satisfaction to many people outside the House to know that the buildings upon which so much money has been spent are suitable now, after all the improvements and expenditure, as a residence either for Royalty or some of their representatives. On 20th May, 1903, an answer was given by the Duke of Devonshire to a question to the effect that "when the works are completed it will be perfectly suitable as a residence for the Sovereign." An answer now, clearly and fully, to a question which is not a frivolous one will give great satisfaction to a number of people
Mr. DUDLEY WARDWhen this work is completed the palace will be quite fitted for the occupation of the Sovereign, except in one respect. The King is going to Holyrood, according to present arrangements, in July. It will not, therefore, be necessary to complete the arrangemnts by then for heating the palace, because, of course, it will then be the height of summer. But this heating will be required to be completed. The Court may desire to go there at any other time of the year. The hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. James Hope) asked if any more work is to be done. I should point out that this sum of £2,000 under Sub-head B is a sum on account. The total estimates when the estimate is complete will be £4,000; the remaining £2,000 will be required for putting up a boiler house, whereas the present £2,000 is required to complete work such as rewiring for electric light and so on. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) asked me another question on the Supplementary Estimate. I do not admit for one moment that it is a bad estimate; a Supplementary Estimate is unavoidable when you are dealing with a very old building such as Holyrood. The whole estimate is something like £6,000 odd, and on that £300 is not a very serious item when taken into consideration with the total sum, nor a very serious miscalculation.
§ Question put, and agreed to.