The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Master of Elibank) movedThat no Bills, other than Government Bills, be introduced in anticipation of the ballot, and that all Members who desire to ballot, whether for Bills or for Motions for Tuesday, 14th February, and Tuesday, 21st February, and Wednesday, 15th February, and Wednesday, 22nd February, do hand in their names at the Table during the sitting of the House on Monday, 6th February, or Tuesday, 7th February, and that a copy of the Notice of such Bill or Motion be handed in at the latest during the sitting of the House on Wednesday, 8th February:
That the ballot for the precedence of the said Bills and Motions be taken on Wednesday, 8th February, at a convenient time and place, to be appointed by Mr. Speaker, and that the presentation of Bills on Thursday, 9th February, be taken immediately after Questions.
§ Lord BALCARRESMay I point out, in the first place, that this Motion is retrospective, referring to what the House was to or should have done yesterday; and, in the second place, that it asks us to ballot for Motions on the 14th, 15th, 21st, and 22nd February, dates upon which the Prime Minister has just informed us Government business only will be taken? It seems to be a little pleonastic.
§ MASTER of ELIBANKI made inquiry before putting down the Motion, and I understand that it is entirely in accordance with the usual formalities and practice of the House. It is entirely formal.
§ Sir E. CARSONIs it entirely formal to take the whole time of the House from the commencement of the Session?
Colonel WILLIAMSThe Prime Minister said that 19th April will be the first Wednesday available. That is the Wednesday after Easter, so that the House is going to sit in Easter week?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI do not say it will; it might.
§ Lord HUGH CECILMight I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury should postpone this proposal until the Prime Minister has moved his Motion taking the time of the House? It is evidently absurd that we should ballot for days which may have no value. The whole conception of the ballot is that you are going to move a Motion. If you are not to have an opportunity to move a Motion, the ballot is an exercise which has not even an athletic interest.
§ MASTER of ELIBANKHon. Members will still be in a position to select their days.
§ Lord HUGH CECILNot the days mentioned in the Motion.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYmoved to leave out the words, "or for Motions for Tuesday, 14th February, and Tuesday, 21st February, and Wednesday, 15th February, and Wednesday, 22nd February."
§ The PRIME MINISTERThe Motion is quite in order as it stands. The Motion taking the time of the House is not yet passed. The House might reject that Motion, and then the days would be available for private Members.
§ Mr. WILLIAM O'BRIENWould it be open to Members successful in the ballot to take any other day which the Prime Minister has indicated may be available?
§ Mr. WALTER LONGIn view of the answer which the Prime Minister has given, the suggestion made just now ought surely to be considered. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that until the Motion taking the time of the House is carried this Motion cannot become operative or effective in any way. Surely the proper course would be to postpone this Motion until after the Motion taking the time of the House. As I think that is the proper way to deal with a very remarkable situation, I beg to move the adjournment of the Debate.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf the ballot is postponed, there will be nothing whatever to prevent hon. Members from bringing in their Bills at once, and the hon. Member who is first in with his Bill will get the pick of the days without balloting. If I might be allowed to say so, I would strongly deprecate altering the old system, which the House has adopted on previous occasions, of setting up a ballot on the third day of the Session. It is only because hon. Members anticipated that that ballot would be set up that they refrained from bringing in their Bills yesterday or today. If that system is to be altered, we shall have a rush of Members to the Table on the first day of the Session, and the Member who is in first will get the pick of the days without going through the formalities of the ballot.
§ Mr. MOOREI understand that it is open to Members to ballot now for days which they will get, if they are fortunate, after Easter. But as the Motion stands now, even that will be taken away from them, because the first sentence relating to Bills is absolutely clear. No Bills other than Government Bills are to be introduced in anticipation of the ballot. As to the particular dates fixed, they refer only to the particular ballot for a particular day. If the House were now to pass this Motion, it would not be in the power even of the ordinary Member to bring in a Bill and ballot for a day after Easter, because the first sentence excludes all those Bills—"That no Bills, other than Government Bills, be introduced in anticipation of the ballot." If private Members are to have their rights of balloting for Bills at a later period of the Session it seems to me that the first clause of the Motion, as drafted, prevents it. This is in direct contravention of the intention of the Prime Minister as expressed by himself within the last few minutes. As no one in the meantime is asking him to "toe the line" I trust he will see his way to carry out his intention to the House.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 124.
133| Division No. 2.] | AYES | [3.15 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Bowerman, Charles W. |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Brace, William |
| Adamson, William | Beale, William Phipson | Brady, Patrick Joseph |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Beauchamp, Edward | Brigg, Sir John |
| Armitage, Robert | Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Gee.) | Burke, E. Haviland. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Booth, Frederick Handel | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Helme, Norval Watson | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Byles, William Pollard | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Henry, Sir Charles S. | Pointer, Joseph |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hinds, John | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lance, Heywood) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Holt, Richard Durning | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hudson, Walter | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Clough, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Clynes, John R. | Hunter, Wm. (Lanark, Govan) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | John, Edward Thomas | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Johnson, William | Reddy, Michael |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Richards, Thomas |
| Cowan, W. H. | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T'w'r H'mts, Stepney) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jowett, Frederick William | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Cullinan, J. | Joyce, Michael | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Keating, Matthew | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Robinson, Sydney |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kelly, Edward | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Devlin, Joseph | King, Joseph (Somerset, North) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. | Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Dillon, John | Lansbury, George | Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Doris, William | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | Sheehy, David |
| Duffy, William J. | Leach, Charles | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Soares, Ernest Joseph |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | Lewis, John Herbert | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) | Lundon, Thomas | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Edwards, Sir Frank (Radnor) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.) | MacGhee, Richard | Sutton, John E. |
| Esmonds, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Maclean, Donald | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Tennant, Harold John |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thomas, James Henry (Derby) |
| Falconer, James | M'Callum, John M. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Laren, F. W. S. (Linc, Spalding) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Fenwick, Charles | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Ferens, Thomas Robinson | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Field, William | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Wadsworth, John |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Mathias, Richard | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| France, Gerald Ashburner | Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's County) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Gelder, Sir William Alfred | Menzies, Sir Walter | Wardle, G. J. |
| Gibson, Sir James Puckering | Molloy, Michael | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Molteno, Percy Alport | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Glanville, Harold James | Money, Leone G. Chiozza | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Goldstone, Frank | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Mooney, John J. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Morrell, Philip | Whitley, John Henry |
| Guest, Major Hon. C H. C. (Pembroke) | Munro, Robert | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Gulland, John William | Needham, Christopher T. | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Hackett, John | Neilson, Francis | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Norman, Sir Henry | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Hancock, John George | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | O'Doherty, Philip | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Dowd, John | Winfrey, Richard |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | O'Grady, James | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Shee, James John | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Master of Elibank and Mr. Illingworth. |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | O'Sullivan, Timothy | |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Parker, James (Halifax) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Beckett, Hon. William Gervase | Cassel, Felix |
| Aitken, William Max. | Beresford, Lord Charles | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major William | Bigland, Alfred | Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Bottomley, Horatio | Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry |
| Astor, Waldorf | Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) | Collings, Rt. Hon. J. (Birmingham) |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Cooper, Richard Ashmole |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Burn, Colonel C. R. | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) |
| Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor | Campion, W. R. | Craik, Sir Henry |
| Barnston, Harry | Carlile, Edward Hildred | Crean, Eugene |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc, E.) | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Fell, Arthur | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Fleming, Valentine | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Forster, Henry William | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Gilhooly, James | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Goldney, Francis Bennett- | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Mackinder, Halford J. | Spear, John Ward |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Macmaster, Donald | Stanier, Beville |
| Gretton, John | M'Calmont, Colonel James | Stanley, Hon. G F. (Preston) |
| Gulney, Patrick | M'Mordie, Robert | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Magnus, Sir Philip | Stewart, Gershom |
| Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Malcolm, Ian | Sykes, Alan John |
| Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Healy, Maurice | Moore, William | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon) | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Newman, John R. P | Walsh, J. (Cork, South) |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Norton-Griffiths, J. | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Horne, William E. (Surrey, Guildford) | O'Brien, William (Cork) | White, Major C. D. (Lancs. Southport) |
| Horner, Andrew Long | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Ingleby, Holcombe | Paget, Almeric Hugh | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Kerr-Smlley, Peter Kerr | Parkes, Ebenezer | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Yate, Col. C. E |
| Kirkwood, John H. M. | Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) | |
| Knight, Capt. Eric Ayshford | Peto, Basil Edward | |
| Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount Helmsley and Viscount Castlereagh |
| Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts., Mile End) | Rawson, Col. Richard H. | |
| Lewisham, Viscount | Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan |
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI beg to move to leave out the words "Wednesday, 8th of February" ["at the latest during the Sitting of the House on Wednesday, 8th February"], and to insert instead thereof the words, "Monday, 27th of February."
As the Motion at present stands the notice of a Bill or Motion has to be handed in at latest on 8th February, but on that date we shall not know whether the Government is going to take the time of the House or what days will be available. If, on the other hand, the 27th is substituted, it would be much better. It does not prevent us giving notice earlier if earlier days are available, but at present we have not the opportunity of knowing what days are to be taken by the Government.
§ Viscount CASTLEREAGHI have great pleasure in seconding the Amendment, which I hope the Government will accept. It is absolutely impossible for the Prime Minister to expect the whole House to continue in the attitude of patient expectancy, which he seems to anticipate. The date proposed in the Amendment could be perfectly well substituted, and if it is we will then be in a position to know what the Government propose to do.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI submit that this Amendment is inconsistent with the decision at which the House has just arrived, because we retained the dates, Tuesday, 14th February, Tuesday, 21st February, and Wednesday, 15th Febru- 134 ary, and Wednesday, 22nd February, yet the hon. Member proposes this Amendment.
§ Lord HUGH CECILAs the last day, they may be put down to-morrow.
§ The PRIME MINISTERThat is quite true, but it seems to contemplate that these days shall not be available; the House has decided they shall be available, and therefore it would be almost absurd to carry this Amendment.
§ Lord HUGH CECILIt is not absurd; it is quite in form. Any hon. Member may, if he choose, put down a Motion earlier. As the Motion stands it prohibits anybody putting down a Motion after to-morrow. Conceive the position! Hon. Members will have to go through a course of telepathic psychology to know what days the Government will take, and whether the House will sit during Easter week or whether it will sit up to Whitsun and then adjourn. And having done all that an hon. Member would have to reckon which of the days would be best on which to put down his notice. The much simpler and more businesslike way would be to wait until the Motion taking the time of the House has been debated and decided upon, and until it is decided what time is to be left to private Members, and how it is proposed to divide that time. Is there not an old proverb about catching the bear before you divide his skin? It would be much more reasonable to wait until the House pronounces 135 how much time is to be available before attempting to divide it up. Here we are going to cut up the bear's skin before we know how large the bear is. It is much better to leave the date open, so as to enable us to put down Bills as soon as may be convenient. I do not think, in all the circumstances, so early a date is convenient. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is customary."] A great many things are customary which are not convenient—for example the custom of Ministers giving evasive answers to questions. That is an old custom, but not an admirable one. I hope, therefore, the Government will accept the Amendment, which is both businesslike and sensible.
Mr. J. W. WILSONI hope the House will not alter the Resolution in any way. A lot of criticism has arisen in consequence of the statement made yesterday with regard to the intentions of the Government before Easter. The Prime Minister has further taken the House into its confidence and informed private Members that any of them who are successful in the ballot will do well not to put their Bills down for any Friday before Easter. In return for that act of courtesy Ministers are pestered by amendments of this sort. I cannot conceive any greater outcry than would have been evoked had the Prime Minister allowed the House to proceed with this ordinary Resolution, and after the ballot took place, then next week announced that the Government intended to take the whole time of the House before Easter. I can conceive no greater and more reasonable outcry for Members who had taken the trouble to ballot for resolutions and the Bills if that course was taken. I consider that the Prime Minister in difficult circumstances has shown the greatest of courtesy to us private Members, and I hope we shall all support the Resolution before the House.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI am always ready to give the Prime Minister credit for being courteous, but I do not think it is a striking instance of it that at the beginning of the Session he should give notice to private Members to take away all their rights. I asked the Prime Minister just now if it was proposed to sit through Easter week, and he replied "No," and he afterwards said they might. If this proposal is carried hon. Members will find themselves in a very difficult position tomorrow. Take the first two who are suc- 136 cessful; one of them may wish to move a Motion on 19th April and the other on 21st April. What position will they be in? It will be a matter of absolute speculation whether their Motions will be taken on either of those days. I think it is only fair to private Members that the Prime Minister should now say definitely whether the House will sit on those two days or not. With regard to Fridays after Whitsuntide, the third Friday will be the second day allotted to private Members, and that comes on the very day after the Coronation. Does that mean that the House of Commons is going to meet the very day after the Coronation.
§ Mr. CHIOZZA MONEYThere seems to me to be some doubt as to what the position of an hon. Member would be if he chose a certain Friday after Easter and then found, in the exigencies of public business, the Government deemed it advisable to take that day—I am speaking of Fridays. If the Government deemed it necessary to take that Friday, of course I should be the first to support them. I think, however, that the businesslike course to pursue in this matter would be to give those who win the ballot an order of precedence so that they may be quite sure that opportunities will be given for bringing their Bills forward.
Captain CRAIGMay I point out that unless this Amendment is accepted it leaves the choice in the hands of the Government as to whether they will take away a date which may be chosen by an hon. Member on this side of the House and reserve only the dates chosen by hon. Friends who support the Prime Minister. In support of the possibility of such a contingency arising I would quote the glaring instance of favouritism shown last year, when my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim was successful in the ballot at an early date, and intended to bring forward a Bill dealing with the reform of the Poor Law in Ireland. As soon as my hon. Friend put down his Bill the Government took that particular Friday, although they preserved the other days which had been chosen by hon. Gentlemen sitting on the opposite side of the House. [HON. MEMBERS, "No, no."] What I have stated is the fact. I think it will only be treating the House fairly to allow the Amendment to be carried so that the dates properly promised by the Prime Minister to enable Bills to be brought forward, or Notices of Motion, will not be interfered 137 with, no matter what the exigencies of public business may be. We are now being robbed of all the privileges of private Members before Easter, which is a large order. With the glaring instance of partiality on the part of the Prime Minister last year before us, I shall certainly vote for this Amendment, which will uphold the rights and privileges usually accorded to private Members before Easter.
§ The PRIME MINISTERIn reference to what has fallen from the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and the hon. Member for Sheffield, it is quite obvious that if this Amendment were carried it would not in the least meet the difficulty complained of. As a matter of fact, the Government would still be able to appropriate the days fixed by the Ballot if the exigencies of public business seemed to require it. The carrying of this Amendment would not meet the difficulty. I have been asked whether I will give something in the nature of a pledge as to what the order of business will be after Easter. I think I should be most unwise if I did anything of the kind. Hon. Members must take the ordinary risks. If I were a private Member, I certainly should not choose the 19th April as the date for bringing in my Bill, because there is a strong probability that as that date will be in Easter week the House might adjourn for the Easter recess. Again, if I were a private Member I do not think I should ballot for the 23rd June, the day after the Coronation. All these difficulties occur every year, and hon. Members must exercise ordinary penetration and prevision in selecting their dates. I think I have given the House full information as to the intentions of the Government.
Mr. BALFOURThe Prime Minister talks of hon. Members taking ordinary risks. May I point out that the risks we run this year are not the ordinary risks, but are quite new, and, as a matter of fact, unexampled risks. It would be improper for me to discuss at length the amazing suggestion which the right hon. Gentleman threw out yesterday—a course which, so far as I know, has never been taken in the Parliamentary life of any hon. Member I am now addressing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."]
§ The PRIME MINISTERAll Fridays were taken last year.
Mr. BALFOURThe right hon. Gentleman may be right in quoting his own pre- 138 cedent, but there is no other. Neither his Government nor the Government of Sir Henry Campbell - Bannerman nor any other Government which I remember has taken the Fridays before Easter unless on occasions for financial business which had to be passed in order to keep the law. But that is not the reason why the right hon. Gentleman is going to take them. He is going to take those days for the ordinary legislative programme of the year, and to talk of that as being ordinary risks to which private Members have to submit is really presuming upon the ignorance of the new Members of the House and the tolerance and forgetfulness of the old Members. The patience with which this suggestion has been received in quarters which used to be very impatient at far smaller invasions of the rights of private Members certainly fills me with interested astonishment. When the right hon. Gentleman talks of the party which he leads—which I thought contained three parties—I really think he is right, and I am inclined to think he does lead them. He appears to be the leader not only of the orthodox Radical, but of the unorthodox Labour party and the Irish Nationalist party. The indifference now shown to a perfectly unexampled invasion of their rights as private Members fills me with regret when I think how much I suffered in the past from the very different treatment meted out to me when I occupied the post which the right hon. Gentleman now fills. These are not the ordinary risks of private Members, and let it be distinctly understood that the Government are making an unexampled invasion for an unexampled reason, for a reason which could never have been treated as an example on any previous occasion—upon rights which private Members certainly thought were secured to them when the reforms were passed some years ago in this House, and which it is reserved to the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends to take away from them. I know perfectly well that Governments must have an object in passing the great Bill of the Session, and, if this was done in order to make it possible to get through this House the Government's great Bill of the Session, I should not say a word. I might protest, but I should not take the line I am now taking. But no such allegation can be made. No such reason exists, and no such reason can be pretended. Therefore, I must say, if I do not anticipate what we may have to say at even greater length on a subsequent occasion, 139 that, when the right hon. Gentleman says in his benevolent manner to the outraged unofficial Member that he must take the ordinary risks, he is merely adding a polite insult to a very substantial injury.
§ Mr. JOHN REDMONDI do not know whether, after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, it would be considered in order to discuss in detail the proposal for taking the time of the House which has yet to be proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister. Certainly, the speech to which we have just listened was confined entirely to the merits of that Motion which has not yet been moved and which is not yet before the House. The right hon. Gentleman complains of the taking of the time of private Members because, he says, it is not to be taken for the purpose of passing the necessary financial business of the year, but for the passing of the ordinary legislative business. If the right hon. Gentleman were correct in saying that the time of private Members was to be taken for what he could properly call the ordinary legislative work of the Session, I for one would protest against this private Members' time being taken. But what hypocrisy it is! What sham and hypocrisy it is for the right hon. Gentleman, after his experience in the country at the last two elections, and after all that has happened, to come down here and talk of the Parliament Bill as being the ordinary legislative work of the year! No, sir, it is not the ordinary legislative work of this Session, it is a great measure affecting the whole future of the Constitution and of this House. It is a great measure that has received twice the sanction of large majorities of the people. If the Government, after that experience, came down to this House and did not use every expedient, putting aside all other business, to push that Bill immediately into law, they most undoubtedly would appear in a very discreditable light before their own followers in this country and elsewhere. It is for the purpose of enabling the will of the people as expressed at the last two elections to be carried out, and to prevent the possibility of its being frustrated and thwarted either by obstruction or dilatory tactics of any kind that my colleagues and I are heartily in favour of the Government taking every possible opportunity of pushing this Bill immediately into law.
§ Sir E. CARSONThe hon. Member has lifted the debate into a different atmosphere, because, according to him, the question whether we are going to have the right to ballot up to 23rd February affects the question whether you are going to carry out the will of the people.
§ Mr. JOHN REDMONDThe hon. and learned Gentleman must excuse me. I did not say one word with reference to the particular Amendment. Why? Because the Leader of the Opposition did not say one word. If I might be allowed with respect to say so, in my more humble judgment, the speech of the Leader of the Opposition was out of order on this occasion, and I was only justified in making my speech, because he was allowed to make his.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think it is time that we approached the Amendment.
§ Sir E. CARSONThe hon. Member has confessed that none of his remarks were addressed to the Amendment. No, Sir, I think everybody will admit that that is probably true, and he was probably giving his usual dictation to the Government benches. It seems to me that the whole of the adoption of this Motion is simply a nullity upon the part of the Government, and it is to try and minimise that, and in order that we may get the most extended time we can for raising this ballot, that we are moving this Amendment. The only way, I think, in which this Motion can be justified at all is that the Government think, because the whole programme of the Session is to take away certain rights of the House of Lords, they ought also at an early stage proceed to take away certain rights of the House of Commons, and become themselves, with the assistance of hon. Members below the gangway, the arbitrary tribunal. The whole object of this Amendment is to minimise what the Prime Minister intends to do, outraging the rights of private Members. No answer has been given as to why, if we are to have opportunities after Easter, which I very much doubt, we should not have an extended time from 8th February to 23rd February in which to hand in Bills or Notices of Motion for the purpose of having them balloted for. The truth of the matter is that at this early part of the Session it is quite plain the Government have made up their minds to 141 respect no rights whatsoever of private Members; and I can assure them the moment we appreciate that, we shall make up our minds and shall in no wise respect the feelings of the Government.
§ Question put, "That the words 'Wednesday, 8th February,' stand part of the Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 151.
143| Division No. 3.] | AYES. | [3.50 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Ferens, T. R. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Ffrench, Peter | Marshall, Arthur Harold |
| Adamson, William | Field, William | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Fitzgibbon, John | Mathlas, Richard |
| Armitage, Robert | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | France, Gerald Ashburner | Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Gelder, Sir William Alfred | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Gibson, Sir James Puckering | Molloy, Michael |
| Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Gill, Alfred Henry | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Beale, William Phipson | Ginnell, Laurence | Mond, Sir Alfred M. |
| Beauchamp, Edward | Glanville, Harold James | Money, Leone G. Chiozza |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Goldstone, Frank | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Morrell, Philip |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Griffith, Ellis Jones (Anglesey) | Munro, Robert |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Brace, William | Gulland, John William | Neilson, Francis |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hackett, John | Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Brigg, Sir John | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Hancock, John George | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Burke, E. Havlland- | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | O'Dowd, John |
| Buxton, Noel, (Norfolk, North) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Grady, James |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Byles, William Pollard | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Haworth, Arthur A. | O'Shee, James John |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs. Heywood) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Helme, Norval Watson | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Henry, Sir Charles S. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hinds, John | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Clough, William | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Holt, Richard Durning | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Hudson, Walter | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Corbett, A. Cameron | John Edward Thomas | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Johnson, William | Price, Sir Robert J. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Priestley, Sir A. (Grantham) |
| Cowan, William Henry | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Prlestlev, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Crawshay-Willlams, Eliot | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Radford, George Heynes |
| Cullinan, John | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T'w'r H'mts, Stepney) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Jowett, Frederick William | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Joyce, Michael | Reddy, Michael |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Keating, Matthew | Redmond, John E. (Watsrtord) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Delany, William | Kelly, Edward | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. | King, Joseph (Somerset, North) | Richards, Thomas |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Dillon, John | Lansbury, George | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Doris, William | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Duffy, William J. | Leach, Charles | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Robinson, Sydney |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | Lewis, John Herbert | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) | Lundon, Thomas | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Edwards, Sir Frank (Radnor) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Rowlands, James |
| Elverston, Harold | MacGhee, Richard | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Maclean, Donald | St. Maur, Harold |
| Essex, Richard Walter | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Scanian, Thomas |
| Falconer, James | M'Callum, John M. | Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Laren, H. D. (Leices.) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Fenwick, Charles | M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Sheehy, David |
| Shortt, Edward | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) | Verney, Sir Harry | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Wadsworth, John | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Soares, Ernest Joseph | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Spicer, Sir Albert | Walton, Sir Joseph | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Strachey, Sir Edward | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) | Wilton, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) |
| Summers, James Woolley | Wardle, G. J. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Sutherland, John E. | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Sutton, John E. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | |
| Tennant, Harold John | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Master of Elibank and Mr. Illingworth. |
| Thomas, James Henry (Derby) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | |
| Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Whitehouse, John Howard | |
| NOES. | ||
| Aitken, William Max | Goldney, Francis Bennett- | Norton-Griffiths, J. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Goldsmith, Frank | O'Brien, William (Cork) |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major William | Gordon, John | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Gretton, John | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Guiney, Patrick | Paget, Almeric Hugh |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Harris, Henry Percy | Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor | Healy, Maurice | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Barnston, Harry | Helmsley, Viscount | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc, E.) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon) | Quilter, William Eley C. |
| Beckett, Hon. William Gervae | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Rawson, Col. Richard H. |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Hillier, Dr. A. P. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan |
| Bottomley, Horatle | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) | Horne, Wm. E (Surrey, Guildford) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Horner, Andrew Long | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Butcher, John George | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Spear, John Ward |
| Campion, W. R. | Kimber, Sir Henry | Stanier, Beville |
| Carlile, Edward Hildred | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Kirkwood, John H. M. | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Cassel, Felix | Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts., Mile End) | Sykes, Alan John |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Lewisham, Viscount | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Chambers, James | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Locker-Lampoon, G. (Salisbury) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. J. (Birmingham) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Walsh, J. (Cork, South) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | White, Major G. D. (Lancs. Southport) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Crean, Eugene | Mackinder, Halford J. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Macmaster, Donald | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | M'Calmont, Colonel James | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | M'Mordie, Robert | Wood, Samuel H. (Derbysh., High Peak) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Magnus, Sir Philip | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Malcolm, Ian | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Mallaby-Deeley, Harry | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Fleming, Valentine | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Moore, William | Younger, George |
| Forster, Henry William | Morpeth, Viscount | |
| Gardner, Ernest | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honlton) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Sir A. Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| Gilhooly, James | Newman, John R. P. |
Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned "—[Lord Balcarres]—put, and agreed to.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEThe Prime Minister has cleared away some of the mystery overshadowing this Motion with regard to Wednesday, the 19th of April, but is he able to give a quotation to cover the risks of the House not sitting on the following Friday, 21st April?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI am afraid not.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIn pursuance of the Resolution which has been adopted by the House, I appoint Committee Boom No. 10, at Twelve o'clock noon to-morrow, as being a convenient time and place for the ballot for Bills and Motions to be taken.