§ Mr. BOOTHasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether under the Vote providing payment of Members of this House it was intended that the term Ministers should refer only to those Members of the Government who hold office direct from the Crown; and whether a Treasury Minute will be issued excluding the Patronage Secretary, the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the Financial Secretary for War, and the various under-secretaries from participation in the Vote of £400 per annum for each non-salaried Member of the House?
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hobhouse)(1) The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. (2) The term "Minis- 2106 ters" includes all Members of His Majesty's Government, whether holding office direct from the Crown or under other Ministers. The Ministers mentioned in the question will therefore be excluded from receipt of salaries as Members of Parliament by the terms of the Grant, without any special direction by the Treasury.
§ Mr. BOOTHCan the right hon. Gentleman give any authority whatever for his statement other than his own view?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEIf my hon. Friend will look at Standing Order No. 9 he will find the term "Minister" used in the sense I have referred to.
§ Mr. BOOTHasked whether it was the intention of the Government, in moving the Resolution passed by this House on the 10th of August relative to the payment of Members, that the definition as a Minister contained therein should be confined to Members of the Cabinet, the Law Officers of the Crown in England, Ireland and Scotland, or if it was intended in future that the paid and unpaid Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, the Under-Secretary of the Home Office, the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, the Under-Secretary for India, the Financial Secretary for War, the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade should take the rank of Minister?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe term "Minister" employed in the Resolution includes the persons referred to in the latter portion of the question.
§ Mr. BOOTHIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the reply given a few minutes ago is entirely erroneous, and that Standing Order No. 9 gives no definition whatever of "Minister"?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI do not know to what answer my hon. Friend refers.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINDoes the right hon. Gentleman intend to exclude the unpaid Lords of the Treasury, who are certainly Ministers of the Crown, from the payment which every other unpaid Member of the House is to receive?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI should not like to answer that question straight away without consideration. I should have thought they would have been included.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINDoes not the right hon. Gentleman know that Lords of the Treasury, unlike Secretaries of the Treasury, are Ministers of the Crown, and that they are therefore excluded by the express words of the Resolution which the House has carried? Is that the intention?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI will consider that. There is only one unpaid Lord of the Treasury.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINDoes not the right hon. Gentleman think that even at this stage he had better bring in a Bill to deal with the matter?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI think the right hon. Gentleman might realise, before putting that question, that it is not necessary to bring in a Bill; it could easily be amended in the Resolution itself. It is quite unnecessary to bring in a Bill for the purpose.
§ Viscount WOLMERMay I ask whether the hon. Member for North Ayrshire (Mr. A. M. Anderson) and the hon. Member for Wick Burghs (Mr. Munro) will receive their salaries, as they are Advocates-Depute and receive salaries of £700 a year?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEPerhaps the Noble Lord will put down a question on the point.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYWho will be the person to decide these points? Will the £250,000 be handed over to Mr. Gibbons, a clerk of this House—a distinguished officer of this House, I agree—for distribution amongst us, and will Mr. Gibbons decide these points?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe Gentleman referred to will be acting under the direction of Mr. Speaker, who will be the ultimate judge in all these matters.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINMay I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether you would be good enough to inform the House whether you are the ultimate judge of what is proper to be done by the Accounting Officer of this House?
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYAnd may I ask whether you have been consulted as to whether you were willing to undertake this extraordinary task?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI had better say nothing on the last question. With regard to the former, I think the matter stands thus. The Accounting Officer, Mr. Gibbons. 2108 is responsible, but if he were to be in any difficulty he would come to me, and I should give him the best advice I could. If I was in any difficulty I should go to the Treasury. I should do my best to carry out the Resolution, but it would always be open at the proper time, if it was not properly administered, to bring the matter up for consideration.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYWill the Comptroller and Auditor-General exercise his functions over this fund?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI take it that this will not be any exception.
§ Sir FORTESCUE FLANNERYWill you take into consideration the fact that the Minister referred to as the only unpaid Lord of the Treasury, is one of the Chief Whips on the Government side, and therefore has a lot of extra work to do?
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe have all a good deal of extra work to do now.