MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked whether, during the recent strike in London, the postal authorities applied to the strike leaders for permits to pass postal vans and stores; and whether the same were obtained?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELOn the 10th instant I was approached by some of the firms who contract with the Post Office for the conveyance of mails by road within the London postal district, who declared that they could not carry out the services unless they were able to obtain further supplies of forage and petrol. On the same day an officer of my Department communicated on my behalf with the Central Disputes Committee, who agreed that the work of the Post Office contractors in handling fodder and petrol for the use of the service should be facilitated. I may add that I have taken similar action at Liverpool, and have been able to maintain throughout the disputes the continuity of the mail cart services.
MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEDoes not the right hon. Gentleman think this is a very humiliating position?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELNo; in the circumstances of the moment it seems to me a most sensible arrangement.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINWere the communications of which the right hon. Gentleman speaks in writing?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELNo; an officer of my Department consulted the leaders of the strikers. There may have been correspondence; I am not sure.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINMay we have it?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI will consider that.
§ Mr. HARRY LAWSONWas the right hon. Gentleman unable to obtain adequate police protection without obtaining these permits?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThey are not my carts or employés. They are the carts and employés of the contractors.
§ Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEDoes this form a precedent?
Mr. PIKE-PEASEDid the right hon. Gentleman get a written permit to use the streets of London from the strikers?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELNo use was made by me of any permit. It was made use of by the employés of the contractors.
§ Mr. BURGOYNEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take steps to secure that, in the event of strikes, those men who desire to serve their employers shall be permitted to do so without molestation within the London area?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLSo far as it is in the power of the police, workmen who desire to continue in their employment will be protected in the exercise of their right.
MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation to enable non-union men, in cases where fair wages are given, to continue their employment without molestation from trade unionists?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLNon-union men are now by law entitled to continue their employment without molestation; and, so far as it is in the power of the police, they will be protected in the exercise of this right.
MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEMay I ask if the right hon. Gentleman is unaware that several non-union men have 1919 been prevented from earning their livelihood by strikers? [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"]
§ Mr. HUNTIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole of Messrs. Bolton's men who had the eightpenny wage were stopped from going on, although they were perfectly satisfied? They were terrorised.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIt is very difficult to deal with specific cases by question and answer across the floor of the House, especially when no previous notice of the questions has been given.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI would ask the Noble Lord to wait until the King's Speech next, year.
§ Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEIf the police are unable to maintain order, is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to take any other steps?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLWhere it has been necessary, other steps have already been taken.
§ Mr. SNOWDENIs the right hon. Gentleman prepared to introduce legislation to prevent non-union workmen from sharing in the advantages which have been obtained by the union men?
Mr. MONTAGUE BARLOWasked whether the Metropolitan Police who were sent to Salford during the recent strike were taken off pay in the Metropolis during the whole period that they were on duty in Salford; and is the result that the Salford Borough Council is in consequence liable for paying them during the whole of that period?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIn accordance with the regulations of the service, the Metropolitan Police sent to Salford were taken off pay as stated. The Salford borough is liable for the whole of the expenses of the Metropolitan Police employed there while they were away from the Metropolis.
Mr. BARLOWWill the right hon. Gentleman tell us what was the arrangement made in regard to the Metropolitan police sent to Hull?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLThe Hull authorities are bearing the whole of the cost of the police. The police were kept beyond 1920 the first three days, so that there is no difficulty at all as between the liability of Hull and Salford in the matter.
Mr. BARLOWIs it not the case that at Hull out of the five days the Metropolitan police were engaged there they were taken off pay for four days, the Hull authorities being only responsible for one day?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIt is quite true that the sending of the police to Hull was done on very short notice indeed, and that a slightly better arrangement was made in regard to Salford than in regard to Hull, but, owing to the fact that the police were kept at Hull beyond the first four or five days, the Hull authorities did become liable for the whole of the amount.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI am quite sure that both of these local authorities will make no difficulty about paying the money for the aid received at a time when they needed it very much.
§ Mr. LANSBURYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is now in a position to state the result of his inquiries into the complaints made against the police for their conduct on Thursday of last, week at Poplar?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLNo inquiry can be made until normal conditions are restored.
§ Mr. LANSBURYMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell us what abnormal conditions prevailed in the Poplar district?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLThe police are fully occupied at the present time, and I am not able to give any information as to the actual position in any particular district in London without notice.
§ Mr. CROOKSMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether little children are playing on the pavements in Poplar this morning as on any other day?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI am glad to hear it. If little children had a monopoly of the pavements, better conditions would very soon exist.
§ Mr. LANSBURYIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that men, women, and children were assaulted on this occasion and that they have absolutely no redress unless he takes some action in the matter, 1921 and further, is he aware that by asking us to wait, he is asking us to wait probably until the House will not meet for weeks, so that we shall have no opportunity at all of raising this matter until it is altogether too late?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLThe Commissioner of police and the officers are working at very high pressure, and I am certainly not going to put any further pressure upon, them.
§ Mr. LANSBURYIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that large numbers of people who were simply using the streets, and were entitled to use them had not merely their heads and shoulders cracked, but were dragged brutally along the streets merely because they could not get out of the road of the patrols quickly enough?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Gentleman is asking as to a number of specific allegations of which notice should be given. It would be better if he would raise the matter on the Appropriation Bill.
§ Mr. LANSBURYI did raise this question days ago—I think almost a week ago—[Interruption]—I do not know whether you want people's blood—[Interruption].
§ Mr. SPEAKERWould the hon. Member kindly address himself to me.
§ Mr. LANSBURYI wish to address myself to you. I have given the right hon. Gentleman five days' notice. Does he consider it reasonable that the people who were assaulted on this occasion should be compelled to wait before inquiries are made?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLYes, I think that, at any rate, the consideration of matters that are past must necessarily be deferred until matters which press for attention in the present have been satisfactorily arranged; and I am not prepared to ask the officers and the heads of the Metropolitan police force to embark upon what must necessarily be a long and detailed inquiry at a time when I can assure the House, from personal knowledge, that they are fully occupied from morning to night; and I hope that hon. Members will not accept the highly coloured accounts which the hon. Gentleman gives of the treatment which the Metropolitan police are alleged to have meted out to peaceful people. Such allegations are contrary to the experience of most of those who know London.
§ Mr. CHIOZZA MONEYI would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, if he cannot put pressure upon the police in this matter, he will, at least, issue a very strong caution? I would like an answer to that question.
§ Mr. ALLEN BAKERasked if, in view of the inconvenience caused to every section of the community by industrial disputes in those industries which affect general public utilities, and in view of the special nature of those industries, the right hon. Gentleman will consider the advisability of introducing, at the earliest opportunity, legislation to provide for the establishment of the compulsory investigation of all disputes in such industries, and to make illegal the declaration of a strike or lock-out in such industries before such investigation has been carried out and reported on by a competent commission, who shall also endeavour by conciliation to settle the disputes in question; and if he is aware that the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, 1907, which is now in force in Canada and is designed to effect the above-mentioned objects, has met with success in the Dominion, and that legislation modelled on it has been passed recently in the Transvaal Parliament?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI am fully aware of the Canadian Act referred to. At the present moment I cannot usefully add to the answers already given by the Prime Minister and the President of the Board of Trade on this subject. The whole question of the improvement of the means available to prevent and shorten industrial warfare is now engaging the earnest attention of the Government in consultation with representatives of important associations of employers and workmen.
§ Mr. ROWNTREEMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman, owing to the great importance of the subject, whether he will arrange for Papers to be laid on the Table of the House giving information as to the results obtained under the working of the Trade Disputes Act, and Acts of a similar character in other countries?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEYes; the Prime Minister is prepared to lay Papers on the Table giving the information as far as available.
§ Mr. CHIOZZA MONEYIn view of the gravity of the proposal suggested in the question, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there will be no 1923 attempt to rush legislation through the House in. any way limiting the right of working men to strike?
§ Mr. CROOKSIf such a Bill is introduced by a private Member, will it receive the support of the Government?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI cannot express any opinion upon that; I think it would be premature to give any answer at all in respect to the character of legislation. We are now only in the state of inquiry and consultation with the various leaders of employers and men.
§ Mr. CHIOZZA MONEYWill the right hon. Gentleman give me an assurance on the point which I put to him?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI think my hon. Friend may depend upon it that a matter of such very great importance must have full time and full consideration given to it.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, when inquiry is being made into the working of the Trades Disputes Act in Canada, he will at the same time consider the getting of further information with regard to the making of compulsory arbitration general in Australia and New Zealand?
§ Mr. JOHN WARDArising out of that suggestion, will the right hon. Gentleman take care that the views of the working men's leaders in those countries are also ascertained?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI think the hon. Gentleman will find that the answer I gave refers not only to Canadian experiments but to experiments in other countries as well.
Mr. PEELasked, in view of the unrest which prevails at present in so many important branches of industry, and of the continual disturbances of the public peace throughout the country, the right hon. Gentleman will undertake to see that adequate military and police assistance is given in all places where it is required; whether the Secretary of State for the Home Department will remain in this country during the Recess, so that he may be constantly in touch with the officers of his Department or the local authorities who may make demands upon the Home Office for advice in cases of local difficulty; and whether it is in accordance with the established traditions of his office that the 1924 Home Secretary should not absent himself from the country under similar circumstances?
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEThe answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. In regard to the rest of the question, it may be assumed that the Secretary of State is not likely in critical times like these to desert his post or fail in any way in his duty.
§ Sir W. BYLESHaving regard to the fact that certain parties have a desire for compulsory military service in this country, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the policy of enrolling the civil population as special constables, in order that they may face the music in Liverpool streets?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member must give notice of that question.
Mr. SHIRLEY BENNasked whether application was made to the strike leaders last week for permission to move fodder and petrol on behalf of the Government; and whether a permit was granted on condition that nothing except fodder or petrol was moved?
§ Colonel SEELYI am informed that no such application was made by the War Office or by any of the commands. I have no knowledge of any action that may have been taken by contractors for petrol or forage on their own initiative.
Mr. SHIRLEY BENNHas the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to the statement made on Sunday afternoon to the effect that the Government had to go to the Strike Committee for permission to move petrol and fodder, and if the statement is incorrect, and is not corrected, is it not apt to be believed?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe right hon. Gentleman has already answered the question.
Mr. POINTERI beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade a question of which I have given him private notice, namely, is he aware of the great danger of the situation on the Midland Railway system in the Sheffield district consequent upon the partial stoppage of work, where incompetent men working busy signal-boxes are being kept on duty twenty-four hours, and that at various places in the district drivers are passing signals standing at danger, being instructed to do so by the company's officials; and in one case a train having passed a danger signal at Dore 1925 station by order of the station-master narrowly averted disaster by pulling up only a few yards from an engine standing on the same road; that incompetent men are in charge of heavily laden passenger trains; whether, in view of the great danger to life and limb that may result from such arrangements he is able to take such steps as shall eventually safeguard the travelling public and prevent loss of life.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Tennant)The Board of Trade have no information regarding the facts suggested by my hon. Friend. Inquiry will be made, and a communication will be made to him when we see the result.
Mr. POINTERIn view of the very grave circumstances that have come to my knowledge and that I have passed on to the Board of Trade, will the Board of Trade push on the inquiry as quickly as possible, in order to avert any further danger?
§ Mr. TENNANTCertainly.
§ Mr. FELLI beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade a question of which I have given him private notice, namely, if it is the fact that large quantities of meat, fruit and vegetables in a damaged condition have within the last few days been thrown into the River Thames on the lower reaches of the river; by whose authority is this done, and up to what point in the river is it allowed?
§ Mr. TENNANTI have communicated with the Port of London Authority, who inform me that they have no knowledge of any such deposit being made. I have also made inquiry of the Medical Officer for the Port of London, with a similar result.
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNORI beg to ask the Home Secretary if he will kindly give the House the latest information with regard to the condition of affairs in Liverpool to-day?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLAlthough the situation in the London Docks shows no deterioration, a difficulty has arisen through a claim on the part of the men at the Albert Dock that they should be engaged outside the dock gates, in order that only union hands shall be taken on. This may be productive of trouble. At Liverpool, yesterday afternoon, an attack made by a violent mob on the prison vans had to be 1926 repelled by force, the troops were forced to fire; but after this event of which full reports have appeared in the Press, order was quickly restored and no further disturbance occurred during the evening or the night; and this morning when the last news was received all was still quiet. The convoys of food are being got out regularly. At Manchester business is practically at a stand still, but there has been no disturbance. Two battalions and a Cavalry regiment are held in readiness to proceed on the request of the local authorities. There was some disorder at Cardiff last night, but this morning all is reported quiet.
§ Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSONMay I ask whether an order has been issued that in certain districts in Liverpool the people must be in their own homes by the hour of darkness, with all lights out, and on whose authority such an order has been issued?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI have no information upon that point at all, but I certainly think the local authorities should be supported in any precautionary steps they think necessary.
§ Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEWill the right hon. Gentleman kindly inform the House how he comes to the conclusion that a distinction can be made between union and non-union men by being taken on at the dock gate?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLThat is a technical matter. If the hon. Gentleman fully understood the position at the London docks—
§ Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEI do.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIf the hon. Gentleman does fully understand the position there is no need to answer the question.
§ Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEI am asking it for the information of the House.
§ Mr. LANSBURYMay I ask whether it is the fact that one of the men shot dead in Liverpool was shot through the head, and whether in the event of the soldiers having to be used at all they will be instructed to fire at people's legs rather than at their heads, and whether he thinks it is in the interests of peace to use the soldiers in that sort of brutal murderous manner?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI do not know as to the facts.
§ Mr. LANSBURYThe right hon. Gentleman told us we had seen the news in the Press. The Press states that. I want to ask whether he thinks that is consistent with trying to get arrangements for peace. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member has not given notice of his question and can hardly expect a full reply. The other matter is a matter of opinion.
§ Mr. LANSBURYThe slaughter of innocent people is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf the hon. Gentleman would address me he would not be met in that way.
§ Mr. LANSBURYI was addressing you.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member will have the opportunity of saying anything on this subject during the Debate on the Appropriation Bill.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYMay I ask the Home Secretary has he any list of casualties which occurred to the police or military before the firing on the people?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLNo casualty list has yet been issued, but a number of soldiers were injured, some of them quite seriously.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYOn the occasion of the firing. I have no doubt there are lists of soldiers injured previously. I am not in the least blaming anybody, but I want to know, as a matter of fact, if there is any list of casualties occurring to the police and military on the occasion or at the moment of firing?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI have got no information. My right hon. Friend informs me he had no information at the War Office on the subject of casualties to soldiers. As to whether there were or not I have no information.
§ Mr. KEIR HARDIECan the Home Secretary say whether, in the case of one of these two men shot dead, the bullet was not fired as one of a volley, but was an isolated shooting on the part of the officer; and the poor fellow who was shot dead must have been in the front of the crowd by pressure from behind—can he say whether that statement which appears in the Press is correct?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLNo, Sir, I cannot. I have received no detailed report of what took place, and I certainly am not pre- 1928 pared to pass judgment on what was done under circumstances of such great difficulty.
§ Sir W. BYLESMay I ask, seeing that he is able to say that there is no disturbance whatever in Manchester, why he should hold out a menace that the military authorities are in readiness to pounce down on them?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI have received a request from the Lord Mayor of Manchester that in case troops are needed they should be conveniently at hand. It was in view of that I made the statement. The Lord Mayor of Manchester got through the last trouble without recourse to the military, and I should not send troops there unless he applied. If he does apply they are conveniently near.
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNORMay we assume that at the proper time full investigation will take place into the circumstances of the killing of this unfortunate man and the circumstances under which the man was acting, whether he was acting voluntarily or was simply pushed forward by the crowd?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLThere is the whole force of the civil law, and these matters come before a coroner's jury in the ordinary course of events. Of course it will be for Parliament to consider whether or not special inquiry should be made into the case, and the conduct and origin or cause of this, but the courts of law will operate in the ordinary way.
§ Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEOn a point of Order. Is the right hon. Gentleman entitled to refuse me information when I ask him a supplementary question?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe right hon. Gentleman did not refuse to take notice, of the hon. Member's question, and the hon. Member admitted that he was fully acquainted with the facts.
§ Mr. CHIOZZA MONEYIn view of the gravity of the question of using the military, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman has directed his attention to the fact that in Germany last year a number of strikers were shot by the military, and that, as a consequence, there has been not less labour trouble in Germany, but more?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is a question for argument.