§ The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Mr. Joseph Pease)I beg to move, "That the Proceedings on Report of Navy and Army Expenditure, 1909–10, and on Report of Ways and Means, be not interrupted this evening under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon and proceeded with at any hour, though opposed."
§ Sir F. BANBURYI should rather like some explanation of this Motion. I was not hero yesterday, but I have endeavoured in the short time I have been back in London to gain some information as to what took place then, and I find that the Government gave no explanation of their Motion. My hon. Friends on this side of the House, animated by a lenient spirit, or possibly ignorant of the Rules of the House, did not ask for an explanation. There are several reasons why this Motion should not be moved. The first is that this is an allotted day, and by the Rules of the House it is laid down that on an allotted day no other Motion, except Motions dealing with Supply, can be taken, and, therefore, a very large number of Members, who perhaps are not interested in the particular Supply which will be before the Committee when you, Sir, leave 1761 the Chair, do not attend. According to the Standing Orders, as soon as the business of Supply is fulfilled, the House will adjourn. Therefore, I think, that of itself is a very strong reason why this Motion should not be made. Another strong reason is that we are going to have an Autumn Sitting, and if we are going to spend still more of our time in the House, at any rate we ought to have an opportunity of considering before eleven o'clock at night the various Motions which are brought forward by the Government for our consideration. A Motion should not be put clown to be considered in the small hours of the morning, but at a time when it can receive proper consideration. This particular Motion, as far as I have been able to ascertain, deals with the Report of the Public Accounts Committee, authorising the transfer of surpluses on certain Votes of the Army and Navy to deficits on certain other Votes. That is a very important question, but one to which I myself, provided it is carried out in a proper manner, do not object; still, it is a question which demands consideration and a certain amount of explanation. I understand that the Government, not content with making this Motion yesterday and gaining one stage in the matter, now come down to the House and want to gain another stage. I want to know, first of all, what is the hurry for this Motion? Secondly, I want to know why, if we are going to have an Autumn Sitting, we should not discuss these matters, which are extremely important, in that Autumn Session? Thirdly, I want to know why the Government did not give any explanation?
§ Sir HILDRED CARLILEMay I point out to my hon. Friend that the Government did give an explanation, in reply to an observation made on this side of the House between a quarter past twelve and half-past twelve in the morning.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI must apologise to the House and to my hon. Friend for having failed to make my meaning clear, that no explanation was given by the Government of the reason which induced them to put down this Motion. The explanation given does not at all state the reason why, at this late period of the Session, with an Autumn Session in view, they find it necessary to come down to the House and make this Motion. I trust we shall have some satisfactory reason given. The right hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Joseph 1762 Pease) will reply, and I hope we shall have a full explanation, because this is an important point. These Motions should not be put down and treated as if they were not debatable Motions, because the House may be misled, which I am sure is not the intention of the Government, at least as far as I know. Therefore, I hope some real reason will be shown by the Government for submitting this Motion. I have not alluded to the second part of the Motion which deals with the Report of Ways and Means. I do not know whether that is so important; perhaps the right, hon. Gentleman will give some explanation. I hope my hon. Friends around me will support me.
§ Mr. JOSEPH PEASEI think I can explain in one minute the necessity for this Motion being made to-day. As the hon. Baronet is aware the Appropriation Bill must be taken stage by stage under the Standing Orders of the House, and it is impossible for the Appropriation Bill to be introduced to-night unless we secure in advance these two formal matters. I call them formal because they are both of them on the Report stage. Last night we discussed in Committee the matters which related to the Army and Navy, and a full explanation was given to the House. If the hon. Baronet refers to the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will see that a full explanation was given as to the way in which the money has been dealt with. With regard to Ways and Means, of course, that again is a purely formal stage which is necessary before we introduce the Appropriation Bill. By introducing the Appropriation Bill to-day we will be able to take the Second Reading to-morrow, and to rise on Friday, so avoiding a Saturday sitting. I believe it is to the general convenience of the House that this course should be taken, and not with a view in any way to prevent discussion. Most ample discussion will be provided for on the Second Reading, and upon the Motion for the adjournment for the holidays.
§ Sir SAMUEL SCOTTThe right hon. Gentleman will remember that last night another point was raised to which I would like an answer. It was why he has not brought this matter before the House earlier than now. The report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General was published in February, and it has been brought before the House only at this last moment. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that a large number of his own party last night asked for an explanation 1763 of this matter, and why it had not been brought before the House previously. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to tell us why.
§ Mr. JOSEPH PEASESo far as I am aware, no representations have been made from the other side that they desired these matters to be introduced earlier; and I am told 14th May was the date the report was before the House.
§ Mr. WHELERWhy is it necessary to get the Appropriation Bill through if we are going to have an Autumn Session?
§ Mr. JOSEPH PEASEIt is necessary in order that the Army should be paid and that the necessary allowances for the year should be made.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 202; Noes, 73.
1765| Division No. 331.] | AYES. | [3.50 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Guest, Hon Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Hackett, J. | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Alden, Percy | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Hancock, John George | Neilson, Francis |
| Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Beale, William Phipson | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | O'Dowd, John |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Ogden, Fred |
| Bentham, George J. | Haworth, Sir Arthur A. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Hayden, John Patrick | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Boland, John Pius | Henry, Sir Charles S. | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Higham, John Sharp | Pointer, Joseph |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hinds, John | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Brady, P. J. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Hodge, John | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Bryce, John Annan | Hughes, S. L. | Radford, G. H. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hudson, Walter | Rattan, Peter Wilson |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan) | Rainy, Adam Rolland |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Johnson, W. | Reddy, M. |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Jones, H. Hadyn (Merioneth) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbight) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Clough, William | Jowett, Frederick William | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Keating, M. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Rowlands, James |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lambert, George (Devon, Molton) | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Crooks, William | Leach, Charles | Samuel, J. (Stockton) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Lewis, John Herbert | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Logan, John William | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Shortt, Edward |
| Dawes, J. A. | Lynch, A. A. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| De Forest, Baron | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Smith, H. B. (Northampton) |
| Doris, William | Maclean, Donald | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Macpherson, James Ian | Sutton, John E. |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | M'Callum, John M. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Falconer, J. | M'Curdy, C. A. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Ferens, Thomas Robinson | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Field, William | Millar, James Duncan | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Gelder, Sir W. A. | Molteno, Percy Alport | Verney, Sir Harry |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Gibson, Sir James P. | Mooney, John J. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Gill, A. H. | Morgan, George Hay | Waring, Walter |
| Glanville, Harold James | Morrell, Philip | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Morton, Alpheus Cleophes | Webb, H. |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Muldoon, John | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Munro, Robert | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | |
| Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Gulland and Mr. Dudley Ward. |
| Wiles, Thomas | Young, William (Perth, East) | |
| Wilkie, Alexander | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Grant, J. A. | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Balcarres, Lord | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Snowden, P. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Horner, Andrew Long | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hunt, Rowland | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Kerry, Earl of | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bird, Alfred | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts, Mile End) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Magnus, Sir Philip | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Cassel, Felix | Mount, William Arthur | Touche, George Alexander |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J, A. (Worc's) | Newdegate, F. A. | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Clive, Captain Percy Arthur | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Clyde, James Avon | Parkes, Ebenezer | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Peel, Hon. W R. W. (Taunton) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Fell, Arthur | Perkins, Walter F. | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Peto, Basil Edward | Younger, Sir George |
| Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Quilter, William Eley C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir F. Banbury and Sir S. Scott, |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | |
| Goldsmith, Frank |