NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1908–9. (Hansard, 19 July 1910)

§ Mr. GEORGE YOUNGER
There are very sufficient reasons for asking the First Lord of the Admiralty to make a friendly explanation of various items in this statement. We have here a very large increase on the vote for wages of officers, seamen and boys, and for victualling and clothing for the Navy. I do not suppose anybody would be likely to object to this increase, because I suppose it arises from the increase of the personnel, and is necessary. When we look at the Vote for shipbuilding, repairs and maintenance we find that there is £146,344 surplus on the Vote and £46,236 on contract work. I think we are entitled to ask how it comes there is such a very large difference between the estimates of the right hon. Gentleman and the figures given, and whether by any chance there has been starvation of repairs and maintenance, which under ordinary circumstances ought to have been carried out in order to find money for the increase in the personnel. There is no other point about it of importance, but there is room for considerable information by the right hon. Gentleman when he comes to deal with these points that I have mentioned. We do not know on what the right hon. Gentleman has saved this money, and we do not know how far he was entitled or justified in saving it. No doubt he will tell the House and satisfy our very natural anxiety on that question. Similarly on the contract work, has there been a saving on the contracts by a reconsideration of them or a reduction in the case of some of them? Has the right hon. Gentleman been saving on granite? I cannot help thinking that there may he some reasons of that kind to account for these savings.

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
These Estimates were prepared in the fall of 1907, and the expenditure began on 1st April, 1908, and ended on 31st March, 1909. The Chairman of the Accounts Committee was so good on examination as to congratulate the Accountant-General of the Navy on the, closeness of the Estimate. The details are set out in the Appropriation Account of 1908–9. My hon. Friend refers to two cases of deficits on Votes 1 and 2 and to surpluses on parts 2 and 3 of Vote 8. With regard to Vote 1 we spent £40,170 5s. 6d. 1215 more than was granted in wages, due to the number of officers and seamen, and an underestimate on our part as to the extra pay and variation in the ratings during the course of the year. As to the second point we over-spent £88,021 10s. 9d., but that is mitigated by savings elsewhere. We over-spent £91,207 2s. 4d. on victualling provisions, messing allowances, etc., due to higher prices, and increased numbers of men. In Part 2 of Vote 8 we had a surplus of £146,344 13s. 9d., due in part to lower prices of timber, coal, metals, and other articles. My hon. Friend referred also to a saving of £46,236 1s. 1d. on contract work. That is due principally to the progress of works on vessels being retarded owing to labour troubles, the failure of certain ships to complete trials, and the placing of some orders at later dates than was originally anticipated.

§ Earl WINTERTON
I wish to call attention to a very important matter, 1216 namely, the deficit which has arisen in connection with the cost of the Territorial Forces. The Secretary of State has already had his attention called, by correspondence, to the fact that in the case of certain Territorial Associations there are very serious deficits indeed. In the Sussex Association, with which I am connected, we have a deficit of £3,000, and unless we are able to draw from sources, at present unexpected, our deficit before the end of the present financial year will have increased to £4,000. It is impossible to exaggerate the seriousness of the position. Unless the Treasury are prepared within the next few months to make a much larger grant the whole organisation of the Territorial Force will come to an end. Every possible economy has been effected; we have cut down to a dangerous extent the expenditure on all kinds of things on which money ought to be spent; still we have a very large deficit; and the Sussex Association, unless more money is speedily forthcoming, will be unable to continue. In view, also, of the deficiency of men, referred to in another place, it is highly important that the House should have an early opportunity of discussing this matter. What does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do? I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has spent over £238,000 in excess of the money voted; but that is not one-tenth of the amount required. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to come to the assistance of the Associations before it is too late. If he does not give more help, this scheme, which all, even those who are opposed to it, are anxious to give a fair trial, will come to an untimely end. In the opinion of all who have to do with the Force, matters have come to a head, and unless more money is at once forthcoming it will be impossible to continue that organisation.

§ Mr. HALDANE
I do not know how far it is in order, but I am glad of the opportunity of saying something of the accounts and the results of the various counties, which differ in the most extraordinary degree. One county that I have in my mind has a balance in hand of £23,000; another county has a very small surplus. All over England you will find in the great majority of cases that the Associations have a surplus, though there are Associations with no surplus. The Army Council and those associated with me have every sympathy with the difficulties of these Associations.

§ Earl WINTERTON
If I may interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, I think he will find that where there are surpluses then there is a very considerable deficiency of men and officers.

§ Mr. HALDANE
Dear me, No! On the contrary, it is in those counties where they are most full of men and officers. I tell the Noble Lord that we have looked into the matter of the accounts of the Associations very thoroughly and sympathetically to see the why and the how of the expenditure, and I assure him that there is no desire to approach these things in a niggardly spirit. All we wish to do is to see that the money is spent as Parliament said it should be spent. As regards the £238,000 excess of expenditure over the estimate in the year 1908–9, it was caused by "The Englishman's Home" and the boom in recruiting. There was such an enormous surplus of recruits that we did spend more money than we estimated we should. That has rather died away this year. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Well, you cannot expect two plays of that nature! The result was that we spent more in that year, and we made it up out of the surplus of other accounts. I hope I have explained to the House the real situation.

			£	s.	d.
Total Surpluses	…	…	376,328	18	3
Total Deficits	…	…	238,138	0	10
Net Surplus	…	…	£138,190	17	5

			£	s.	d.
Total Surpluses	…	…	906,164	17	10
Total Deficits	…	…	306,464	7	9
Net Surplus	…	…	£599,700	10	1