HC Deb 12 July 1910 vol 19 cc203-7

I beg to ask leave to introduce a Bill to amend The Sunday Closing (Wales) Act, 1881, and to snake further provision for the sale of intoxicating liquors in Wales and Mon-mouthshire.

If the House carries in its mind something of the history of this Bill and knows the strong feeling behind it, it will understand why we take every possible opportunity of bringing the facts on which it rests before the attention of the House. The purpose of the Bill is to deal with certain irregularities which have arisen in connection with the Sunday Closing (Wales) Act. The Amendments in the Bill deal with two main points of difficulty. The first is the so-called bonâ fide traveller difficulty, and the second the club question in so far as it relates to Sunday closing. The Bill seeks to deal with the traveller difficulty by providing that in the case of Wales, as in the case of Scotland, there should be a special Sunday licence. It proposes to deal with the club difficulty by empowering the licensing justices in Wales, if they think it necessary in the interest of public order, to prohibit the supply of liquor in clubs in their areas. The Bill has a long history in this House. The original Act was passed thirty years ago. I myself have introduced this Bill eighteen times. It has behind it, in the first place, the unanimous support of the Sunday Closing Committee which reported in 1890, and it has also the recommendation of both the majority and the minority sections of the Licensing Commission of 1898. So far as the body of opinion in Wales is concerned I do not think any man will deny that it has been expressed in favour of this measure. Every county council in Wales has more than once petitioned in favour of this Bill, every considerable public authority in the country has also done so, and the great majority of the Parliamentary representatives from Wales for many years have been pledged to its provisions. I think this Bill is not only important in itself, but it is important as regards the necessity of doing something along the lines of the reasonable extension of local self-government which will enable local opinion in a matter of this kind to be made the law of the land. I have no doubt myself that, having regard to all these circumstances, the House will grant me leave to introduce the Bill.


I am extremely reluctant to oppose any hon. Member who proposes to introduce a Bill, but I do submit that the introduction of this Bill under this procedure at this particular time is most inopportune. I would respectfully suggest to the hon. Member that, having introduced this Bill eighteen times, he ought to be satisfied with the reward which will come to him in due course for his devotion to the temperance cause. I submit that the measure is inopportune, because we are in the midst of discussing, or on the point of discussing, a Budget which proposes to re-enact burdens and restrictions on the licensed trade which were imposed a year ago with the express purpose of giving effect to the most drastic provisions of the defeated Licensing Bill. My next objection to the Bill is that it is really based upon principles of fanatical Sabbatarianism altogether out of date in the twentieth century. My third objection is that the proposals in the Bill, like all these proposals, are, in fact, causing exasperation to temperance men. The hon. Member talks of remedying certain difficulties in regard to Sunday drinking by the provisions of this measure, but it is inevitable that, if he seeks to put restrictions and limitations on the freedom of the people in his own district, they will naturally migrate to the nearest sphere of freedom. If he were to succeed in closing licensed houses in the way proposed, the people of Wales who wanted to get drink would go over the border, and then we, the people of England, in whose name I may perhaps be permitted to speak on this occasion, would have inflicted upon us the residuum of the Welsh community. The hon. Member must be aware that if you try to keep people from drink by closing the houses in their own localities they will naturally go to places where they will get it. I think the procedure under which the hon. Member asks leave to introduce the Bill should only be used by private Members when they have been unsuccess

ful in the ballot and when they are justified in calling the attention of the House and the country to some measure of prominent and urgent importance. I would respectfully suggest that this is not the time for the introduction of the Bill, and, therefore, I object to its introduction.

Question put, "That leave be given to introduce the said Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 165; Noes, 90.

Division No. 88.] AYES. [3.40 p.m.
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Rattan, Peter Wilson
Agnew, George William Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Raphael, Herbert H.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Anderson, Andrew Macbeth Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Rees, Sir J. D.
Armitage, Robert Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Richards, Thomas
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Barlow, Sir John Emmott Hayward, Evan Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) Healy, Timothy Michael Robinson, Sidney
Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Gee) Helme, Norval Watson Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Bentham, George Jackson Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Roe, Sir Thomas
Boland, John Plus Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Rowntree, Arnold
Bowles, Thomas Gibson Higham, John Sharp Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Brigg, Sir J. Hindle, Frederick George Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Holt, Richard Durning Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Seddon, James A.
Buxton, C. R. (Devon, Mid.) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Shackleton, David James
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Hudson, Walter Shortt, Edward
Byles, William Pollard Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tidvil) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis Snowden, Philip
Chancellor, Henry George Leach, Charles Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Channing, Sir Francis Allston Lehmann, Rudolf C. Soares, Ernest Joseph
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Lewis, John Herbert Summers, James Woolley
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Llewolyn, Venables Sutton, John E.
Clough, William London, Thomas Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Clynes, John R. Lyell, Charles Henry Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Thomas, James Henry (Derby)
Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)
Compton-Rickett, Sir J. MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Toulmin, George
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. M'Callum, John M. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Cowan, William Henry M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) M'Laren, F. W. S. (Linc., Spalding) Verney, Frederic William
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) Vivian, Henry
Crosfield, Arthur H. Manfield, Harry Walters, John Tudor
Crossley, Sir William J. Meagher, Michael Walton, Sir Joseph
Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Middlebrook, William Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Millar, James Duncan Wardle, George J.
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Molteno, Percy Alpert Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Mond, Sir Alfred Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Waterlow, David Sydney
Esslemont, George Birnie Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Falconer, James Munro, Robert White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)
Fenwick, Charles Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Ferens, Thomas Robinson Muspratt, Max Whitehouse, John Howard
France, Gerald Ashburner Neilson, Francis Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)
Gelder, Sir William Alfred Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Norton, Capt. Cecil W. Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Gibbins, F. W. Ogden, Fred Winfrey, Richard
Gill, Alfred Henry Parker, James (Halifax) Wing, Thomas
Ginnell, Laurence Pearson, Weetman H. M. Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Glover, Thomas Pickersgill, Edward Hare Young, William (Perth, East)
Guest, Major Pointer, Joseph Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Gulland, John William Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Pringle, William M. R. Herbert Roberts and Sir D. Brynmor
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Radford, George Heynes Jones.
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
Acland-Hood. Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Baird, John Lawrence Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk. Mid)
Adam, Major William A Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Brackenbury, Henry Langton
Arbuthnot, Gerald A. Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor Brassey, H. L. C. (Northants, N.)
Attenborough Walter Annis Barnston, Harry Brassey, Capt. R. (Oxon, Banbury)
Bagot, Colonel Joscellne Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Bridgeman, William Clive
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)
Burgoyne, Alan Hughes Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) Peto, Basil Edward
Calley, Col. Thomas C. P. Hills, John Walter (Durham) Proby, Col. Douglas James
Campion, W. R. Hope, Harry (Bute) Remnant, James Farquharson
Carlile, Edward Hildred Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Ridley, Samuel Forde
Cooper, Capt. Bryan R. (Dublin, S.) Jackson, John A. (Whitehaven) Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Craik, Sir Henry Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Ronaldshay, Earl of
Croft, Henry Page Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Royds, Edmund
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Kirkwood, John H. M. Sanders, Robert Arthur
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Knight, Capt. Eric Ayshford Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Faber, George D. (Clapham) Lane-Fox, G. R. Stanler, Beville
Falle, Bertram Godfrey Lloyd, George Ambrose Stewart, Gershom (Ches., Wirral)
Fell, Arthur Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Sykes, Alan John
Fletcher, John Samuel Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Talbot, Lord Edmund
Gibbs, George Abraham Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Thorne, William (West Ham)
Gilmour, Captain John Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Tryon, Capt. George Clement
Goldsmith, Frank Mason, James F. Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)
Goulding, Edward Alfred Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Watt, Henry A.
Greene, Walter Raymond Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Wheler, Granville C. H.
Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Middlemore, John Throgmorton White, Major G. D. (Lanc., Southport)
Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Hambro, Angus Valdemar Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Wood, Hen. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Hamersley, Alfred St. George Mount, William Arthur Worthington-Evans, L.
Helmsley, Viscount Newdegate, F. A.
Henderson, H. G. H. (Berkshire) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Bottomley and Earl Winterton.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Herbert Roberts, Sir Alfred Thomas, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Ellis Davies, and Mr. Richards. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 26th July.