§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,) CroydonIf the House will permit me, I will deal with the points raised by the two honourable Gentlemen with regard to my action in respect to automatic couplings. I can assure my honourable Friend, the Member for Peterborough, that I was very careful to make all the enquiries I could before introducing the Bill at all. That enquiry was made in the United States and the report was entirely in favour of the automatic couplings. The honourable Member said that the Bill was not a very drastic measure, but on the contrary an extremely mild one. I quite agree. The honourable Member for Stoke-on-Trent seemed to think he had found a conclusive answer to the Bill when he said that the automatic couplings he had seen in use were not suitable. It was never contemplated that there should be any special form of automatic couplings and everyone will admit that the couplings which he has seen and condemned are unsuitable for English railways. But we purposely propose to give five years to the railway Companies to endeavour to obtain automatic couplings which might be suitable for the railways of this country. If no such couplings were found during that time then of course it would be impossible for the Board of Trade to make the order which they are empowered to do under 662 this Bill, notwithstanding the enquiries I made in the United States. I made other enquiries, and I had no reason to expect that the Bill would be received as it has been by certain persons. It is quite apparent to all those who understand Parliamentary Procedure that the demand for enquiry which has been made by those interested is of such a character as to render it absolutely impossible that any Government could carry a measure of this kind through the House, with the business before it, during the present Session, and what makes that more evident is that both parties concerned, the railway men and the truck owners, both consider that it is necessary that they themselves should make an investigation into the matter. That investigation is now pending in the United States of America. The railway Companies and truck owners have sent out a commission, and the railway servants have also sent out a commission.
§ MR. MADD1SONBut the enquiry will be finished and they will be back in time for the second reading after Easter.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADEBut we have not only to deal with the second reading The second reading of a measure of this character is a very little way indeed, and there again let me say that I always recognised that a further enquiry would be necessary and that the Bill should be referred to a Committee. Everybody who understands the Procedure of the House of Commons must know that it is no matter of regret that this Bill was introduced. We must all feel that the question of automatic couplings has been greatly advanced by the mere introduction of this measure. The action of the railway Companies must shew us all that their minds are now being directed seriously to the question of automatic couplings, and whether the enquiry which will have to take place to investigate this subject precedes the second reading of this Bill or follows it, our position is very much the same. Indeed, I venture to say that a Commission appointed at once to enquire into the matter would advance the Bill more than if we had to wait to a latter period of the Session, which we should have to do to get the second reading. Now the honourable Gentleman says that if it is referred to a Royal Commission, having regard to the safety of life and limb, it 663 should have a wide scope. Certainly, if a Royal Commission is to be appointed it cannot confine its attention to automatic couplings. If it is appointed it must have a large and wide reference to enable it to enquire into all methods of saving-life, and all appliances of which we can avail ourselves for that purpose.
§ MR. MADDISONThe right honourable Gentleman has not answered the Question, which I consider of vital importance, as to what is to be the nature of the enquiry.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADEThe nature of the enquiry is under the consideration of the Government, and if the matter is referred to a Royal Commission, it will be such a reference as the honourable Gentleman desires.
§ MR. MADDISONMay I take it for granted that the present Bill is to be dropped altogether?
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADENo, the honourable Gentleman cannot take it for granted at all. I do not know what the honourable Gentleman desires: does he desire that one portion of this Bill referring to safety appliances should be passed into law and that the other parts of this Bill should be referred to a tribunal to be decided upon? If a Royal Commission is appointed it may be desirable that the whole Question, not only this Bill, but other matters connected with railway management, should be referred as well. You could not refer the mere question of automatic couplings to a Royal Commission. If it is desirable that everything should be done to save life and limb upon the railways, it would be also desirable to refer the whole question of railway management to the Commission. Now the honourable Gentleman, the Member for Middles borough, complained that I complained that he had not given me any notice of his intentions. I had no right to demand any notice from him at all, but there is a courteous understanding between the honourable Members of this House and the Ministers that when honourable Members are going to bring anything forward that they should give some notice; and in bringing an indictment against the whole conduct of the Board of Trade and attempting to 664 cut down the estimates, it would have been not only courteous but wise on the part of the honourable Member to have given the Minister some notice, because he knows very well that the Minister is not charged with all the information which would enable him to deal with all the Questions he has raised. The honourable Gentleman said I must not lose my temper. I do not profess to be angelic in my temper, and I confess that I think, not possessing the temper of an angel, that it is enough to ruffle any Minister who has thrown at his head such a mass of insinuation and inuendo and chaff as the honourable Gentleman has thrown, not only against my personal conduct, but the conduct of other trustworthy and highly-placed persons. Let me say I did not allege that any statement made by the honourable Gentleman was untrue. I said his statements were unfounded and greatly exaggerated, and I adhere to my statement. What does the right honourable Gentleman charge me with? With breaking the law; that I was palming on to the House deceptive figures; that I was a shareholder in the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and that I had ignored promises made on my behalf to enquire into the question of the law with regard to the accommodation for Lascars, that I had given only evasive replies and that we had enforced the law against the weak and not against the strong, the strong being the Peninsular and Oriental Company.
§ MR. HAVELOCK WILSONWould the right honourable Gentleman allow me to say I quite admit every one of those statements with the exception of one, and that is the one which deals with supplying false figures to the House. I said the figures given to the House were supplied by the Peninsular and Oriental Company. I did not charge the Right honourable Gentleman with supplying false figures to the House.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADEIt did not occur to me that he had said I had manufactured the figures; but he said I had presented figures that were false, that I had been shuffling, that I had been giving evasive replies, and breaking my promises. Are not these charges enough to ruffle the temper of an angel? Now the honourable Gentleman asked me to give some proof of what I had said that he had made 665 grossly exaggerated statements. There were three cases in my mind, although at the time I had not the figures beside me. The honourable Gentleman said that I had given figures supplied to me by the Peninsular and Oriental Company, which were false figures, with regard to the Lascars carried on the "Sumatra," the "Arcadia," and the "Caledonia." The figures which I gave were, "Sumatra" 65 Lascars, giving a cubic measurement of 71 feet, which the honourable Gentleman says is about up to the mark, 72 feet; the "Arcadia" 132, and the "Caledonia" 157. The honourable Gentleman said the figures ought to have been "Sumatra" 87, "Arcadia" 100, "Caledonia" 192. There was a slight misstatement in the "Caledonia" figures on account of, by accident, the numbers being taken for the outward trip instead of the inward; but that does not affect the main argument. Now these figures which were supplied to me, the honourable Gentleman says were false. Is he aware that of the 87 on the "Sumatra," 22 were men engaged in the purser's and steward's departments, and that they were not Lascars at all, but Goanese Christians.
§ MR. HAVELOCK WILSONI was quite aware of that.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADEIs he also aware that they did not live nor mess with the Lascars?
§ MR. HAVELOCK WILSONThe right honourable Gentleman is under a misapprehension on this point. The question I asked was, what accommodation was provided for these men, and what was the number of men employed? The right honourable Gentleman himself supplied a return which he got from the Customs, which gave the number of men who were on board the ship when it arrived in port. That was the correct number. Therefore, it was no fault of mine, but the fault of the people who supplied the right honourable Gentleman with the information.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADEIt is the fault of the honourable Gentleman to quote the figures he did. The fact of him knowing that these 22 men were not Lascars at all, that they did not live with the Lascars, that they did not mess with the Lascars, and 666 that therefore the space occupied by them had no right to be counted as space occupied by Lascars. The fact of his knowing all this, and did not tell it to the House shows a great want of candour on the part of the right honourable Gentleman.
§ MR. HAVELOCK WILSONI must object to that statement. I say that they are included in the space that is provided in connection with the natives or Lascars. I am quite sure that on further enquiry the right honourable Gentleman will find that he is mistaken on that point.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADEDoes the honourable Gentleman say that these Goanese Christians live and sleep in the same space area as the Mohammedan Lascars do?
§ MR. HAVELOCK WILSONI did not say that.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADEThen I cannot understand the honourable Gentleman. My information is that in the "Sumatra," the "Arcadia," and the "Caledonia," whore a considerable number of these native Christains are carried, the honourable Gentleman included them amongst the Lascars, and in the space given to the Lascars. Of course no space has been counted for these men, for the very reason that they did not occupy the same place as the Lascars; and for the honourable Gentleman to quote in this House figures which have no reference to a large number of men who are not Lascars at all but are Christians, and who do not live at all with the Mohammedan Lascars for the purpose of shewing that not enough space is given to the Lascars—that, I say, shews a want of candour on his part.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESI think the right honourable Gentleman has wasted a great deal of time over the honourable Member for Middleborough. That honourable Member has been in the habit of making all kinds of statements, putting them down on the paper as Questions and of not being here in his place to ask his Questions. These Questions are full of the most infamous insinuations, and he has always failed to prove them, as clearly and completely as he has failed today. It is rather hard for the honourable 667 Gentleman to carry on his business in this House in that manner. If he carries on his business outside this House on the same principles as he carries it on in the House, I do not think I can predict for him any great success in his calling in life.
§ MR. HAVELOCK WILSONMay I ask the honourable Gentleman if he is the general censor?
§ MR. SPEAKERI must ask the honourable Member to abstain from the practice of interrupting whenever an expression is used with which he does not agree.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESThe impertinence and the irrelevance of the interruptions of the honourable Member are becoming intolerable.
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, Order! The word ' impertinence' should be withdrawn.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESI will withdraw the word unreservedly. I need not say I am not perfect. I was very much interested to hear the remarks of the Right Honourable the President of the Board of Trade in regard to the Railways Bill which he coupled with some hope that at a future time the Bill may be revived. I think that hope is destined to be defeated. I trust that the right honourable Gentleman will reconsider the whole situation and not suggest that there is any chance of reviving the Bill. The Bill is absolutely dead, and I think that the reasons which the right honourable Gentleman himself gave are sufficient to show that it ought to remain dead. The right honourable Gentleman has said that the cause of automatic coupling has been advanced by the introduction of the Bill. But I cannot see how any cause can be advanced by bringing in a Bill in this House which causes strong indignation on the part of all those who understand the objects and effect of the Bill. Then the right honourable Gentleman said that the object of the Bill was not to impose a specific order on the Railway Companies as to automatic couplings; but my honourable Friend below the gangway showed very clearly that the only automatic coupling which has been tried here is imperfect. Next the President of the Board of Trade said that the Bill did not 668 impose a specific automatic coupling on the Railway Companies; but that it gave the Company five years to discuss one. Then the Bill is a Bill for the discovery of an automatic coupling. I think it is absurd to bring in a Bill for such a purpose. The right honourable Gentleman says if the discovery of an effective automatic coupling was not made within five years the Bill would have remained a dead letter, and that no hurt would have come to any Railway Company. I think the Bill is a very serious object lesson to Her Majesty's Government, and I hope before they introduce revolutions of this sort— for this Bill would have been a revolution —they will take steps to ascertain the facts, not in the United States but in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. I believe the facts are not such as to warrant an interference with the Railway Companies of the United Kingdom before enquiry. I, for one, am extremely pleased both for the sake of the right honourable Gentleman and of Her Majesty's Government that this unfortunate proposal has been abandoned. I do hope the right honourable Gentleman will seriously reconsider the suggestion he has made that the Bill may have to be revived. That would be contrary to the interest of the right honourable Gentleman and deadly to the interests of the Government. It would lead all those interested in railways to make further secessions from the ranks of the supporters of the Government, which would be extremely unfortunate, and which the Government, strong though it may be, can scarcely afford.