- 1."That a sum, not exceeding £6,509,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Pay, Allowances, and other Charges of Her Majesty's Army at Home and Abroad (exclusive of India) (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1900."
- 2."That a sum, not exceeding £1,555,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Retired-Pay, Half-Pay, and other Non-Effective Charges for Officers and others, which will come in course of payment, during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1900?"
- 3."That a sum, not exceeding £1,325,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals and the In-Pensioners thereof, of Out-Pensions, for the Maintenance of Lunatics for whom Pensions are not drawn, and of Gratuities awarded in Commutation and in lieu of Pensions, of Rewards for Meritorious Services, of Victoria Cross Pensions, and of Pensions to the Widows and Children of Warrant Officers, etc., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day "of March 1900."
- 4. "That a sum, not exceeding £185,700, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Superannuation, Compensation, and Compassionate Allowances and Gratuities, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st clay of March 1900."
§ Resolutions read a second time.
§
Amendment proposed—
In First Resolution, leave out '£6,509,000,' and insert ' £6,508,900' instead thereof."—(Mr. Weir.)
§ *MR. WEIRI beg to move that this Vote be reduced by £100, and I do so as a protest against the system of recruiting in the Highlands of Scotland. I object—and I- believe I have honourable Members on this side of the House with me—to the recruiting which has been carried on at such an extravagant cost in the Highlands, where the recruiting officers have been marching through the lonely glens of Scotland instead of seeking men in the towns and populous country districts. It is simply madness to send recruiting officers to those lonely parts of the country, and the results show that after spending about £250 in one march, one recruit only was secured. I represent a constituency where there are many poor fishermen, crofters, and cottars, and it is my duty to protest against this extravagance.
§ MR. LEWISI rise to support this Motion upon other grounds than those which have been given by 1472 the honourable Member who has just sat down. I consider the expenditure upon the Army in this country is most extravagant and disproportionate to the needs of this country. This expenditure is the outcome of the Jingo policy of which we have heard so much in the country during the past year. I hope in the future that Her Majesty's Government, instead of stimulating this policy, will do their utmost to keep it down, and that they will provide for the country and the Army at a more moderate and reasonable cost, which will be sufficient, and not more than sufficient, in order to defend the possessions of our Empire. The increase of our armaments in every direction has become one of the most grave and pressing problems we have to meet. Attempts are being made in different countries of Europe to decrease those armaments, and the olive branch has been held out to us, and I think we ought to show a good example. I shall vote for my honourable Friend's Motion, as a protest against taxation in this respect, for there is a point beyond which taxation should not go. I see the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, and I wonder what sort of a statement he will be able to lay on the Table of this House. I imagine, owing to the great expenditure on our armaments and the increase in the Army which they entail, that the right honourable Gentleman will find himself probably in a position of considerable difficulty, and this notwithstanding the great prosperity of this country. There is a very serious aspect to this question, and honourable Members opposite must not treat it as a jest. If honourable Members on this side have not had opportunities of speaking their minds on this question, there is no reason why at this eleventh hour—or rather at this hour of the morning-—some protest should not be made against the enormous and excessive expenditure of this country upon armaments. I can say that so far as the people outside this House are concerned, honourable Members have no 1473 idea of the intensity of the feeling that prevails on this subject in many quarters. Have honourable Members not heard of the enthusiastic meetings that have been held and attended, not only by partisans, but by bishops and ministers of religion and those whose business it is in life to promote the principles of peace in this country? I say again that the feeling that has been evoked in this country has been intense, and I only hope that Her Majesty's Government will definitely abandon these enormous schemes for increasing the Army. We hear sometimes—and not from irresponsible persons either—that this country is rapidly approaching the necessity for a system of conscription, and we ought not to give any countenance whatever
| AYES. | ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Fisher, William Hayes | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Atkinson, Rt Hon. John | Folkestone, Viscount | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manc'r) | Gedge, Sydney | Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptf'd) |
| Balfour,Rt Hn Gerill W.(Leeds) | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Muntz, Philip A. |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Goldswortky, Major-General | Murray, RtHnA.Graham(Bute) |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Myers, William Henry |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Beach,Rt.Hn SirM.H.(Bristol) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Green, WalfordD.(Wednesbury) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Drlngtn.) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Gretton, John | Penn, John |
| Bethell, Commander | Graville, Hon. Ronald | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Gull, Sir Cameron | Pilkington, Richard |
| Bill, Charles | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George | Pollock, Harry Frederick |
| Bond, Edward | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bowles, Capt.H.F. (Middlesex) | Hardy, Laurence | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Purvis, Robert |
| Cavendish,V. C.W. (Derbysh.) | Heaton, John Henniker | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Helder, Augustus | Ritchie, Rt.Hn. Chas.Thomson |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Henderson, Alexander | Robinson, Brooke |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Chamberlain. Rt. Hn J. (Binn.) | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor.) | Kemp, George | Ryder, John Herbert Dudley |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Kenyon, James | bassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Charrington, Spencer | Lafone, Alfred | Scott, SirS. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire) |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) | Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Lowles, John | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Curzon, Viscount | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Stock, James Henry |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Strauss, Arthur |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Denny, Colonel | Macdona, John Cumming | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Malcolm, Ian | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. "M. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras) |
§ to that state of things, and I sincerely hope that we shall never see conscription adopted in this country. With reference to this increase in the Army, I can only say that it takes some steps along the road to conscription, and I shall oppose this increase as a matter of principle, believing that the charges sought to be imposed upon the taxpayer of this country are, unhappily, in excess of the burdens which they ought to be called upon to bear.
§
Question put—
That £6,509,000 stand part of the said Resolution.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 133; Noes 28.—(Division List No. 59.)
| Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. | Wodehouse,RtHn.E.R.(Bath) | Sir William Walrond and |
| Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- | Wylie, Alexander | Mr. Anstruther. |
| Williams, JosephPowell(Birm.) | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. | |
| Willox, Sir John Archibald | Wyvill, Marmadukc D'Arcy |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Wm. (Newe. underLyme) | Lewis, John Herbert | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Lloyd-George, David | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Billson, Alfred | Lough, Thomas | Ure, Alexander |
| Caldwell, James | Macaleese, Daniel | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh) | Morton, Edw.J.C. (Devonport) | Williams,John Carvell (Notts.) |
| Colville, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro') |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pearson, Sir Weetman D. | |
| Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Richardson, J. (Durham) | Mr. Weir and Mr. Herbert |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Roberts. |
| Lambert, George | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
§
Question put—
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 133; Noes 28.—(Division List No. 60.)
| AYES. | ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Elliot Hn A. Ralph Douglas | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Middlemore,John Throgmorton |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Fisher, William Hayes | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Balfour,Rt.Hon.A.J.(Manc'r) | Folkestone, Viscount | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) |
| Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds) | Gedge, Sydney | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptf'd) |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Muntz, Philip A. |
| Bathurst, Hn Allen Benjamin | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Murray, RtHnA. Graham (Bute) |
| Beach,Rt.Hn.Sir M.H. (Bristol) | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | Myers, William Henry |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Green, WalfordD.(Wednesbury) | Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford |
| Bethell, Commander | Gretton, John | Pease, Herbert Pike (Drlngtn.) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M M. | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Penn, John |
| Bill, Charles | Gull, Sir Cameron | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Bond, Edward | Hamilton, Rt.Hn. Lord George | Pilkington, Richard |
| Bowles. Capt.H.F. (Middlesex | Banbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. | Pollock, Harry Frederick |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hardy, Laurence | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Cavendish,V. C.W. (Derbvsh.) | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Pryee-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Heaton, John Henniker | Purvis, Robert |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Holder, Augustus | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Henderson, Alexander | Ritchie, Rt.Hn. Chas.Thomson |
| Chamberlain, Rt.Hn J. (Birm) | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | Robinson, Brooke |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wer.) | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Kemp, George | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Charrington, Spencer | Kenyon, James | Ryder, John Herbert Dudley |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Compton, LordAlwyne | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) | Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Cubitt, Hon Henry | Lowles, John | Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) |
| Curzon, Viscount | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Stock, James Henry |
| Denny, Colonel | Macdona, John Gumming | Strauss, Arthur |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Malcolm, Ian | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn.W.F. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Thornton, Percy M. | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Tollemache, Henry James | Williams,JosephPowell(Birm.) | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Valentia, Viscount | Willox, Sir John Archibald | |
| Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) | Wodehouse,RtHn. E.R.(Bath) | Sir William Walrond and |
| Welby, Lieut,-Col. A. C. E. | Wylie, Alexander | Mr. Anstruther. |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Wm.(Kewc.undei'Lyme) | Lloyd-George, David | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Lough, Thomas | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Billson, Alfred | Macaleese, Daniel | Ure, Alexander |
| Caldwell, James | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Colville, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Williams, John Carvell (Notts.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pearson, Sir Weetman D. | Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro') |
| Hayne, Rt, Hn. Charles Seale- | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Richardson, J. (Durham) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Mr. Weir and Dr. Clark. |
| Lambert, George | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
§ Resolution agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Second Resolution, leave out '£1,555,000,"and insert '£1,550,500' instead thereof."—(Dr. Clark.)
§ DR. CLARKI beg to move a reduction of £4,500 in this Vote. This question came up in Committee about this time on Saturday morning, and I tried to get some information from the War Department of this extra increase of £4,500 for half-pay to general officers, but I could get no satisfactory reply. There is a Warrant by which the number of general officers in the Army is determined. That Warrant determines that there shall be six field-marshals, 10 generals, 20 lieutenant-generals, and 70 major-generals. One would think that that large Staff would be quite sufficient to do all the work of the Army. Whether 70 major-generals are sufficient or not, this is the number which the Warrant allows. When the Warrant was passed in 1891 there were more than 70 major-generals, but they were allowed to remain, and it was agreed that as by age they retired their places should not be filled up. But this year we have got an increase in this one Estimate of £1,500, which means nine extra major-grenerals, so that instead of the War Office carrying out the Warrant both in spirit and in letter, they are breaking it 1478 both in spirit and in letter, and are increasing the number of officers. I can understand you increasing the number of your men, because at the present time, and in comparison with European | armies, you cannot call your Army an Army. It is merely adivision; but you have more officers, and you spend more money on officers, than Germany and France put together. What has been done has been to promote nine colonels beyond the number determined by the War Office. Honourable Gentlemen on the other side used to be fond of the name "Constitutionalist," but I am glad to say that the new Unionist Party does not call itself constitutional, because it is revolutionary in many respects, and this is one of the revolutionary things it has done. You ought not to have made those promotions until you had weeded out some of the older major-generals. As it is, you are spending £4,500 in adding more officers to an already over-officered Army, and I think it is the duty of the House of Commons not to vote this money without some information.
§ MR. CALDWELL (Lanark, Mid.)I rise to support this reduction not only for the reasons stated, but for other reasons, which I shall give. Vote No. 4 deals with noneffective Services, and the Vote which follows deals with the men, and includes 1479 the warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, men, and others. I think it is important to look at the sum total of these two Estimates. I find that the officers take amongst them more in pensions and retired pay than the whole of the men. I venture to say that is a state of affairs which should not exist. The pay of the men amounts to 3¼ times more than the pay of the officers, and I contend that the pensions and rewards should be in a corresponding proportion. It is curious that you should be pensioning off so many officers at a time when you are anxious to increase the Army, and when there is work to be done. The sum of £27,900 is provided extra, owing to officers who are expected to retire this year, as compared with last year, and last year was an advance on the year before; and I think we are entitled to some explanation. How is it, when you are doing everything you can to recruit your Army, that your officers are allowed to go out on retiring pensions and half-pay? I hope, before this Vote is taken, we shall have an explanation.
§ MR. LLOYD - GEORGE (Carnarvon, etc.)I think who ought to have an explanation on the point which has been raised by my honourable Friend the Member for Caith-
| AYES. | ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Atkinson, Rt Hon. John | Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Bagos, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Chamberlain, Rt Hn.J (Birm.) | Folkestone, Viscount |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Mane'r) | Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor.) | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) |
| Balfour,RtHnGcraldW.(Leeds) | Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Gedge, Sydney- |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Charrington, Spencer | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Goldsworthy, Major-General |
| Bathurst. Hn Allen Benjamin | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Gordon, Hon. John Edward |
| Bcach. Rt. Hn. Sir M.H. (Bristol) | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Corbott, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Green, WaifordD.(Wednesbury) |
| Bethell, Commarder | Cubitl, Hon. Henry | Cretton, John |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Curzon, Viscount | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Bill, Charles | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Gull, Sir Cameron |
| Bond, Edward | Davenpoit, W. Bremley- | Hamilton, Rt.Hn. Lord George |
| Bowles. Capt. H.F. (Middlesex) | Denny, Colonel | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St John | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hardy, Laurence |
| Cavendish.V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. | Hare, Thomas Leigh |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Elliot, Hn. A Ralph Douglas | Heaton, John Henniker |
§ ness. As he has already stated, he called attention to this matter on Saturday morning last, but the reply which he received was of the summary character of all the explanations which were given at that early hour of the morning. I think these large Army Votes require some explanation, especially when there is a suggestion of something in the nature of a "job." There has been an increase of £7,000 caused by the handing over to colonels work which ought to have been performed by major-generals; and if that is contrary to the rules of the Army and to precedent, I think we ought to have some explanation. Although we are unable to provide funds for the establishment of an old-age pension scheme for pensioning civilians who are doing quite as effective service to the State, still we are able to find £1,000,000 to pension off these officers. In common courtesy to honourable Members the Government should give some explanation of the great increase that has taken place in this Vote.
§
Question put—
That £1,555,000 stand part of the said Resolution.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 133; Noes 28.—(Division List No, 61.)
| Helder, Augustus | Murray, RtHnA.Graham(Bute) | Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) |
| Henderson, Alexander | Myers, William Henry | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | Nicholson, William Graham | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Stock, James Henry |
| Kemp, George | Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford | Strauss, Arthur |
| Kenyon, James | Pease, Herbert Pike (Drlngtn.) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Lafone, Alfred | Penn, John | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) | Pierpoint, Robert | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. | Pilkington, Richard | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Pollock, Harry Frederick | Valentia, Viscount |
| Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras) |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) |
| Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Purvis, Robert | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. |
| Lowles, John | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Ritchie, Rt.Hn. Chas.Thomson | Williams, JosephPowell(Birm.) |
| Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Robinson, Brooke | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Macdona, John Gumming | Royds, Clement Molyneux | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Malcolm, Ian | Russell, T W. (Tyrone) | Wodehouse,RtHn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Ryder, John Herbert Dadley | Wylie, Alexander |
| Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Middlemore,John Throgmorton | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arey |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Seton-Karr, Henry | |
| More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) | Sharpe, William Edward T. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire) | Sir William Walrond and |
| Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptf 'd) | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Mr. Anstruther. |
| Muntz, Philip A. | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Win. (Newe. underLyme) | Lough, Thomas | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Macaleese, Daniel | Ure, Alexander |
| Billson, Alfred | Morton, Edw.J.C (Devonport) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Caldwell, James | O'Brien, Patrick. (Kilkenny) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Colville, John | Pearson, Sir Weetman D. | Williams, John Carvefl(Notts.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro') |
| Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Richardson, J. (Durham) | |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Dr. Clark and Mr. Lloyd- |
| Lambert, George | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | George. |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
§
Question put—
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 133; Noes 28.—Division List No. 62.)
| AYES. | ||
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Douglas. Rt Hon A Akers- |
| Bagot, Capt.Josceline FitzRoy | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. |
| Balfour, Rt, Hn. A. J.(Manc'r) | Caaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas |
| Balfour,Rt HnGeraldW. (Leeds) | Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J. (Birm.) | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Chamberlain, J. Auste.n(Worc'r) | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Chaplin, Rt Hon Henry | Folkestone, Viscount |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Charrington, Spencer | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) |
| Beach,Rt.Hn.SirM.H. (Bristol) | Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Gedge, Sydney |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Coghill. Douglas Harry | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Goldsworthy, Major-General |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Gordon, Hon. John Edward |
| Bethell, Commander | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon |
| Bhownaagree, Sir M. M. | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Bill, Charles | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Bond, Edward | Curzon, Viscount | Green, WalfordD.(Wednesbury) |
| Bowles, Capt.H.F. (Middlesex) | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Gretton, John |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Davenport, W. Bromley- | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Cavendish,V. C.W. (Derbysh.) | Denny, Colonel | Gull, Sir Cameron |
| Hamilton, Rt.Hn. Lord George | Morrell, George Herbert | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Haabury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. | Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptf 'd) | Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) |
| Hardy, Laurence | Muntz, Philip A. | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Murray,RtHnA.Giv,ham(Bute) | Stanley Lord (Lancs.) |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Myers, William Henry | Stock, James Henry |
| Helder, Augustus | Nicholson, William Graham | Strauss, Arthur |
| Henderson, Alexander | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Pease, Herbert Pike (Drlngtn.) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Kemp, George | Penn, John | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Kenyon, James | Pierpoint, Robert | Valentia, Viscount |
| Lafone, Alfred | Pilkington, Richard | Webster. R. G. (St. Pancras) |
| Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) | Pollock, Harry Frederick | Webster, SirR. E. (I. of W.) |
| Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Purvis, Robert | Williams, JosephPowell(Birm.) |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Ritchie, Rt.Hn. Chas.Thomson | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Lowles, John | Robinson, Brooke | Wodehouse,RtHn.E.R.(Bath) |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Royds, Clement Molyneux | Wylie, Alexander |
| Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Russell, T. W (Tyrone) | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Ryder, John Herbert Dudley | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arey |
| Malcolm, Ian | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | |
| Massey-Mainwaring, Hn.W.F. | Scott, SirS. (Marylebone, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Seton-Karr, Henry | Sir William Walrond and |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Mr. Anstruther. |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire) | |
| More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen,Wm.(Newc.underLyme) | Lough, Thomas | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Macaleese, Daniel | Ure, Alexander |
| Billson, Alfred | Morton, Edw.J.C (Devonport) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Colvilie, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pearson, Sir Weetman D. | Williams, John Carvell (Notts.) |
| Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro') |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Richardson, J. (Durham) | |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Lambert, George | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Dr. Clark and Mr. Cald- |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | well. |
| Lloyd-George, David | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
§ Resolution agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Third Resolution, leave out '£1,325,500,' and insert '£1,325,100' instead thereof."—(Mr. Weir.)
§ *MR. WEIRI move this reduction on account of the large salary which is paid to the Governor of the Chelsea Hospital, who receives £500 per year simply for the honour and glory of being Governor of that hospital. I think that with £1,300 a year as a field-marshal pension he should be satisfied with £100 for acting as the Governor of Chelsea Hospital. I hope that the Gentleman on the Front Bench who represents the War Office 1484 will not remain silent, and I trust that he will get up and explain matters, and inform the House whether he can see his way to reduce this remuneration by at least £100. I have no desire at this time of the night, having regard to the appeal made by the First Lord of the Treasury, to occupy the time of the House further, although there are other matters on which I should like to speak.
§ MR. CALDWELLI rise to second this Motion, because I understand that there will be no other opportunity of moving any other reduction. In this Vote No. 15 I do not think that the Government need complain of the little time which has been devoted to its dis- 1485 cussion, because a sum of £1,325,000 is involved. Why, there are Votes amounting to three or four millions which have taken an hour and a half, and I don't think we are taking an undue amount of time in discussing a matter of this kind. Of course, if we are taking an undue amount of time, then the First Lord of the Treasury knows the remedy. The Twelve o'clock Rule was suspended, and what is the use of suspending that Rule if we are not—
§ MR. CALDWELLI would point out that in the Vote which we passed for the officers we paid £175,000 for widows' pensions, but the corresponding Vote with regard to the men is only about £6,000 for widows' pensions. Now, there is another point. When you are dealing with the officers the rewards for distinguished or meritorious service amount to £12,200 in the Vote we have passed, but when we turn to the case of the men we find that they get about £6,500. I venture to say—
§ MR. BANBURY (Peckham)Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. The honourable Member is alluding to a Vote that has already been passed.
§ MR. CALDWELLI was only drawing a contrast. Here you have got two classes of people, the officers and the men, and it is perfectly fair criticism to say that in regard to your treatment you deal with the officers in a more handsome manner than you do the men, and that is the point of my observation. You find, for instance, with regard to the pensioners in Chelsea, that the amount is going rapidly down. There is a reduction of £12,000 on the Vote this year compared with the year before, and we are getting out of the giving of pensions to the men, and although we are increasing enormously Vote 14 you find that the Vote to the officers is in- 1486 creased by £12,800, while in the case of this Vote there is an increase of £10,000. 1 venture to say that now we are increasing the number of the Army we ought to be increasing the pay of the rank and file, and their allowances ought to be all the more, as they have the hard work to do. For these reasons I support the reduction which has been moved; and I am inclined to vote against the whole Vote, if we are treated as we were on the last Vote without any reply from the Government.
§ THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. J. POWELL WILLIAMS, Birmingham, S.)The field-marshal, as Governor of Chelsea Hospital is entitled, under the Queen's Regulations, to half-pay, amounting to £1,300 per year, and he is also entitled to £500 a year as the Governor of Chelsea Hospital. It is an important appointment, to which is attached much responsibility: and it is impossible to put duties of that kind upon a retired officer without giving due remuneration for the performance of those duties. With regard to the additional salary of the Lieutenant-Governor and Secretary, that is a matter personal to the present holder of the office. The present holder of the office at the time of his appointment was Governor of Hong Kong, and he accepted this appointment which was offered him In the meantime, representations were made that the salary might be reduced, but he had accepted the appointment on the original terms, and it was not felt to be fair under these circumstances to insist upon a reduction. When his term of office expires, and a new Lieutenant-Governor is appointed, the reduction will be made.
§ DR. CLARKI cannot allow this discussion to end without calling attention to this important question of holding plural offices. If there is one thing which honourable Members of this House have been strong and eloquent in, it is in denouncing this system of pluralism. The salaries of these officers are very 1487 high, and everybody admits that they are more than they ought to be. This officer gets his half-pay, and he has earned it, and no one can say anything against it, but in most of these appointments it is a case of, "What are you doing, Bill?" And the reply is, "Nothing." Then the question is asked, "What are you doing, Jack?" And the answer is, "Helping Bill." I only hope that before another Estimate comes be-
| AYES. | ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Penn, John |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Bagot, Capt Josceline FitzRoy | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | Pilkington, Richard |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn A. J. (Manc'r) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Pollock. Harry Frederick |
| Balfour,RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds) | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Green, WalfordD. (Wednesbury) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Gretton, John | Purvis, Robert |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Bsnjamin | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Beach, Rt Hn.SirM.H. (Bristol) | Gull, Sir Cameron | Ritchie, Rt.Hn. Chas.Thomson |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Hamilton, Rt.Hn. Lord George | Robinson, Brooke |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hardy, Laurence | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Bethell, Commander | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Ryder, John Herbert Dudley |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Heaton, John Henniker | Saraoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Bill, Charles | Holder, Augustus | Scott, Sir S. (Marybbone, W.) |
| Bond, Edward | Henderson, Alexander | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Bowles, Capt.H.F. (Middlesex) | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon St. John | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire) |
| Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbysh.) | Kemp, George | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hortford, East) | Kenyon, James | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Lafone, Alfred | Smith, Abel H. (Christehurch) |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Chamberlam, Rt.Hn.J (Birm.) | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. | Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r) | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Stock, James Henry |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon Henry | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Strauss, Arthur |
| Charrington, Spencer | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Lowles, John | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Valentia, Viscount |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Macdona, John Cumming | Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Malcolm, Ian | Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) |
| Gubitt, Hon. Henry | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn.W.F. | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. |
| Curzon, Viscount | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Williams, JosephPowell (Birm.) |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Denny, Colonel | More, Rtobt. Jasper (Shropsh.) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Douglas. Rt. Hn A Akers | Morrell, George Herbert | Wodehouse,RtHn.E.R.(Bath) |
| Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. | Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptf'd) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas | Muntz, Philip A. | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute) | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arey |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Myers, William Henry | |
| Folkestone, Viscount | Nicholson, William Graham | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Sir William Walrond and |
| Gedge, Sydney | Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford | Mr. Anstruther. |
| Godson,Sir Augustus Frederick | Pease, Herbert Bike (Drlngtn.) |
§ fore us the Government will abolish these sinecures. This is one of the things which they ought to look into, and they will find plenty of room for doing so.
§
Question put—
That £1,325,500 stand part of the Besolution.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 133; Noes 27.—(Division List No. 63.)
| NOES | ||
| Allen, Wm.(Newe.underLyme) | Lloyd-George, David | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Macaleese, Daniel | Ure, Alexander |
| Billson, Alfred | Morton, Edw.J.C (Devonport) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Caldwell, James | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Williams, John Carvell(Notts.) |
| Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh) | Pearson, Sir Weetnian D. | Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro') |
| Colville, John | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | |
| Goddard, Daniel-Ford | Richardson, J. (Durham) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Mr. Weir and Mr. William. |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Roberts, John H.'(Denbighs.) | Jones. |
| Lambert, George | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
§
Question proposed—
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.
§ MR. LEWISThere is one rather important question which I wish to raise before this Vote is finally put. An item of £2,500 for the Royal Commissioners of the Patriotic Fund appears in the Estimates for the first time. It is extremely important that the House should watch, and watch closely, any items of new expenditure of this kind. I do not suppose there is a Member on either side of the House who would disapprove of the object to which this £2,500 is to be applied—namely, in pensions to widows, compassionate allowances, and so forth; but the Commissioners of the Patriotic Fund have not had, I venture to say, a very brilliant history, and they have at various periods not very far distant from each other been severely criticised by the Press of this country. Perhaps it would be going too far to say there had been extravagance and mismanagement, but at the same time it has been found necessary to make very careful inquiries into the way in which the Royal Commissioners of the Patriotic Fund have performed their work. I contend that some of this money should be devoted to the soldiers who have been awarded the Victoria Cross for meritorious service in the field. Piper Findlater, for instance, when he left the Army had to maintain himself, and in order to do so was practically compelled to hire himself out to enter- 1490 tainers. Honourable Members know very well that this resulted in a very painful exposure of the way in which we treat the men who have risked their lives for their country. I hope the right honourable Gentleman will be able to give the House some satisfactory assurance in regard to this point, and also some explanation with reference to the item for the Royal Commissioners of the Patriotic Fund which appears in the Estimates for the first time.
§ MR. HAVELOCK WILSON (Middlesbrough)In consequence of the noise which honourabe Members are making on the other side of the House, and the fact that we cannot get satisfactory explanations to our questions, I beg to move—
That the Debate be now adjourned.
§ *MR. SPEAKERI cannot accept that Motion.
§ MR. POWELL WILLIAMSThe soldiers who receive the Victoria Cross may, by a recent regulation, if their circumstances require it, receive a payment not exceeding £50 a year for life, supposing, as I say, that they are not able to earn sufficient to keep them in the position which men who receive that I distinction ought to occupy. With regard to the other question, the Patriotic Fund is not an annual payment. A little time ago an acute eye at the War Office discovered a fund which had been accumulating for a good many years, 1491 and which was originally derived from the sale of old stores. This had been administered by the Quartermaster-General in the interest of persons who axe benefitted by the Patriotic Fund, but it has now been transferred to the Patriotic Fund Commissioners.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Fourth Resolution, leave out ' £183,700,' and insert ' £179,000' instead thereof."—(Mr. Caldwell.)
§ MR. CALDWELLI rise to move this reduction in order to call attention to the superanuation allowance of members of the Metropolitan Police. We have
| AYES. | ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Dairymple, Sir Charles | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Davenport, W. Bromley- | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Bagot, Capt.JoscelineFitzRoy | Denny, Colonel | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. |
| Balfour, Rt Hn. A. J (Mrnc'r) | Douglas, Rt Hon A. Akers | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) |
| Balfour.Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Duncombe, Hon. Rubert V. | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller |
| Balfour,Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds) | Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas | Lowles, John |
| Banbury, Frederiek George | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Fisher, William Hayes | Macartney, W. G. Ellison |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Folkestone, Viscount | Macdona, John Gumming |
| Beach, Rt.Hn.SirM.H.(Bristol) | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Malcolm Ian |
| Beckett. Ernest William | Gedge, Sydney | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn.W.F. |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Middlemore.John Throgmorton |
| Bethell, Commander | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Mildinay, Francis Bingham |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) |
| Bill, Charles | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Bond, Edward | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptf'd) |
| Bowles Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Green, WalfordD. (Wednesbury) | Muntz, Philip A. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gretton, John | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute) |
| Cavendish.V. C.W. (Derbysli.) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Myers, William Henry |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Gull, Sir Cameron | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hamilton, Rt.Hn. Lord George | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Hanbury, Rt, Hn. Robert Wm. | Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. (Birm. | Hardy, Laurence | Pease, Herbert Pike. (Drlngtn.) |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor.) | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Penn, John |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Heaton, John Henniker | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Charrington, Spencer | Helder, Augustus | Pilkington, Richard |
| Cochrane, Thos. H. A. E. | ||
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Henderson, Alexander | Pollock, Harry Frederick |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Pryee-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Kemp, George | Purvis, Robert |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Kenyon, James | Kasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Cubitt, Hon Henry | Lafone, Alfred | Ritchie, Rt.Hn. Chas.Thomson |
| Curzon, Viscount | Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) | Robinson, Brooke |
§ always maintained that the cost of the Metropolitan Police should be a charge on the metropolitan funds.
§ MR. POWELL WILLIAMSI do not think the honourable Member who has raised this question quite understands what the charge is. The members of the Metropolitan Police are allowed to count their Army Sen-ice in respect of their pension, and the War Office have undertaken to pay so much of their pension as applies to their service in the Army. That accounts for this charge.
§
Question put—
That £183,700 stand part of the said Resolution.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 134; Noes 26.—(Division List No. 64.)
| Koyds, Clement Molyneux | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Williams, JosephPowell(Birm.) |
| Ryder, John Herbert Dudley | Stock, James Henry | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Strauss, Arthur | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Seott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Wodehouse,RtHn.E.R,(Bath) |
| Seton-Karr, Henry | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Thornton, Percy M. | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) | Tollemache, Henry James | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arey |
| Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire) | Valentia, Viscount | |
| Simeon, Sir Parrington | Webster, R, G. (St. Pancras) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) | Sir William Walrond and |
| Smith, Abel H. (Christchureh) | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. | Mr. Anstruther. |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Wm. (Newe. under Lyme) | Lewis, John Herbert | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Lloyd-George, David | Ure, Alexander |
| Billson, Alfred | Macaleese, Daniel | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh) | Morton, Edw.J.C. (Devonport) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Colville, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Williams, John Carvell (Notts.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pearson, Sir Weetman D. | Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro') |
| Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Richardson, J. (Durham) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Mr. Caldwell and Mr. |
| Lambert, George | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Jonathan Samuel. |
§
Question put—
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 129; Noes 27.—(Division List No. 65.)
| AYES. | ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Curzon, Viscount | Kemp, George |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Kenyon, James |
| Bagot, Capt Josceline FitzRoy | Davenport, W. Bromley- | Lafone, Alfred |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A J. (Manc'r) | Denny, Colonel | Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) |
| Balfour.RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds) | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Barton. Dunbar Plunket | Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. |
| Bathurst, Rt. Hn. Allen Benjam | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) |
| Beaeh.Rt Hn.SirM.H.(Bristol) | Fisher, William Hayes | Lopes Henry Yarde Buller |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Folkestone, Viscount | Lowles, John |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Bentinek, Lord Henry C. | Gedge, Sydney | Macartney, W. G. Ellison |
| Bethell, Commander | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Malcolm, Ian |
| Bond, Edward | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn.W.F. |
| Bowles, Capt.H.F. (Middlesex) | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Middlemore,John Throgmorton |
| Cavendish,V. C.W. (Derbysh.) | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Green,Walfordl).(Wedneebury) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Gretton, John | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Muntz, Philip A. |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn.J. (Birm.) | (lull, Sir Cameron | Murray,Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor.) | Hamilton, Rt.Hn Lord George | Myers, William Henry |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Hanbury, Rt. Hnt Robert Wm. | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hardy, Laurence | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford |
| Coghill, Douglas Hany | Heaton, John Henniker | Pease, Herbert Pike (Drlngtn.) |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Helder, Augustus | Penn, John |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Henderson, Alexander | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Corbert, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | Pilkington, Richard |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Pollock, Harry Frederick |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Simeon, Sir Harrington | Welby.Lieut.-Col.A. C. E. |
| Pryco-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Purvis, Robert | Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) | Williams, JosephPowell(Birm.) |
| Rasoh, Major Frederic Carne | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Ritchie, Rt.Hn. Chas. Thomson | Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Robinson, Brooke | Stock, James Henry | Wylie, Alexander |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Strauss, Arthur | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arey |
| Ryder, John Herbert Dudley | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | |
| Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Thornton, Percy M. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Tollemache, Henry James | Sir William Walrond and |
| Setou-Karr. Henry | Valentia, Viscount | .Mr. Anstruther. |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras) | |
| Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire) | Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Wm.(Newc.underLyme) | Lewis, John Herbert | Sullivan, Dona] (Westmeath) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Lloyd-George, David | Ure, Alexander |
| Billson, Alfred | Macaleese, Daniel | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Caldwell, James | Morton, Edw. J.C.(Devonport) | Williams, John Carvell(Notts.) |
| Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro') |
| Colville, John | Pearson, Sir Weetman D. | |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Richardson, J. (Durham) | Mr. Weir and Mr. Jonathan |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Samuel. |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | |
| Lambert, George | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
§
Motion made and Question proposed—
That this House do now adjourn."—(The First Lord of the Treasury.)
§ MR. LEWISMr. Speaker, I have one word to say on the Motion for adjournment. There has been a certain feeling of irritation aroused on this side of the House by the action of the right honourable Gentleman, who generally gets on so admirably with us, in moving the Closure when the oppor- 1496 tunity arrived for bringing forward a case, the statement of which would only have occupied five minutes.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe remarks of the honourable Member are out of order.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ House adjourned at fifty-five minutes after Two of the clock.