HC Deb 07 March 1899 vol 68 cc41-54

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question (6th March)—

*MR. SPEAKER

The Question is that Mr. Hanbury be a member of the Houses of Lords and Commons Permanent Staff Joint Committee.

*MR. PIRIE: (Aberdeen, N.)

Upon this Question, Sir, there are two points of order upon which I wish to take your Ruling. As regards this Motion which has been made by the honourable Baronet the Member for the Tiverton Division of Devonshire, I would request to know whether it is in order in coming in upon the Paper of to-day, in view of Standing Order 16 of the House, which rules that on Monday and Thursday Motions are to be taken by Members of the Government, and on Tuesday and Friday by non-official Members of the House. Under that ruling I would venture to submit that the honourable Baronet, as a Member of the Government, took his precedence yesterday to move on Mondays and Thursdays, and, therefore, he is not entitled to bring in this Motion until the next Government day.

*MR. SPEAKER

The same point was taken last Session, and I then stated that the effect of Standing Order 16 is to enable any Member, whether a member of the Government or not, to put down Motions on Tuesdays and Fridays, and to give the Government the additional privilege of putting such Motions down on Mondays and Thursdays.

*MR. PIRIE

I would respectfully put another point of order to you, and that is whether the Motion ought not to appear at the end of Private Business, and whether it is not taking up the time of the private Members to put it in at the commencement of Private Business on a private Members' day?

*MR. SPEAKER

That appears to me to be exactly the same Question—that upon which I have just ruled.

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed—

"That Mr. James William Lowther be one other Member of the Committee."—(Mr. Anstruther.)

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.)

I object to the honourable Gentleman being a member of the Committee; not that I object with reference to any personal qualification which the honourable Gentleman may possess, but because I think, in the case of a Committee of this kind, an Irish Member would be better. My objection is in the interest of the Prime Minister, who, as we all know, is to be on this Committee. He would understand our powers of cross-examination, and we could assure him that we could enlighten him on many abuses that take place, and we all know that it is the Irish Members who expose all these abuses and bring them into the light of day. The Prime Minister knows the right honourable Gentleman the Chairman of Committees, but he has not the privilege of knowing any of us, to his own great loss, and if he was on the Committee we should be able to make his acquaintance, and he ours. And, what is more, we know all about these offices and these dark places. It is rather, a brave thing for an Irish Member to go in search of the House of Lords. The object of having an Irish Member on this Committee is that it does not look well to the public at large in cases of this kind, where abuses are being investigated—abuses which were first brought to light by Irish Members—that Irish Members should not be represented on the Committee. Of course, I am perfectly well aware that there is no ground for such a suggestion,

but, still, it docs not look well to the public at large. I am not saying anything against the constitution of the Committee, but it is certainly clear that the preponderating influence will be all on one side. The two Radical Members on the Committee who represent this side of the House are the only two Radicals which will be on the Committee, because one could not by any possibility find a Radical in the House of Lords, however many microscopic glasses were applied to that institution. Honourable Gentlemen have come to me and asked me "for God's sake" to get an Irish Member on the Committee. Therefore, in the interest of Lord Salisbury, who does not know the Irish Members, I would ask that an Irish Member should be on the Committee. And, also, in the interests of fair play, because, as I said before, it is the Irish Members who first discovered these abuses. I therefore propose to negative the name of the right honourable Gentleman the Chairman of the Committees in order to substitute another.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 211; Noes 63.—(Division List 31.)

AYES.
Aird, John Buxton, Sydney Charles Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Ambrose, William (Middlesex) Causton, Richard Knight Doxford, William Theodore
Arrol, Sir William Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh.) Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H. Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Fgerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Bailey James (Walworth) Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas
Baillie, James E.B. (Inverness) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Ellis, Thos. Ed. (Merionethsh.)
Baird, John George Alexander Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor.) Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)
Balcarres, Lord Charrington, Spencer Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r)
Baldwin, Alfred Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Coghill, Douglas Harry Fisher, William Hayes
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds) Colling, Rt. Hon. Jesse FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Banbury, Frederick George Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) Fitzmaurice,(Lord Edmond
Barrv, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts) Cornwallis, Fiernes Stanley W. Fletcher, Sir Henry
Bartley, George C. T. Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leonard H. Flower, Ernest
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Cranborne, Viscount Folkestone, Viscount
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin Cripps, Charles Alfred Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Crombie, John William Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants) Cubitt, Hon. Henry Fry, Lewis
Bethell, Commander Curzon, Viscount Garfit, William
Bill, Charles Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Giles, Charles Tyrrell
Blundeli, Colonel Henry Dalkeith, Earl of Gilliat, John Sanders
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Davenport, W. Bromley- Goldsworthy, Major-General
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) Gordon, Hon. John Edward
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) Denny, Colonel Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon
Brassey, Albert Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rge's)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dorington, Sir John Edward Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Doughty, George Gourley, Sir Edwd. Temperley
Graham, Henry Robert Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent Rutherford, John
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Greville, Hon. Ronald Lucas-Shadwell, William Sharpe, William Edward T.
Gull, Sir Cameron Macartney, W. G. Ellison Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Halsey, Thomas Frederick Maclean, James Mackenzie Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Redfrew)
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. Maclure, Sir John William Sidebottom. Wm. (Derbyshire)
Haslett, Sir James Horner M' Calmont, H. L. B.(Cambs.) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale M'Ewan, William Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)
Heath, James M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edin., W.) Smith, Hn. W. F. D (Strand)
Heaton, John Henniker M' Killop, James Spencer, Ernest
Helder, Augustus Malcolm, Ian Stanley. Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth)
Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampst'd) Mellor, Rt. Hn. J.W.(Yorks.) Stevenson, Francis S.
Hobhouse, Henry Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Hornby, Sir William Henry Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton Stone, Sir Benjamin
Horniman, Frederick John Milner, Sir Frederick George Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Howard, Joseph Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Talbot, Lord E. ((Chichester)
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Morgan, Hn. Fd.(Monm'thsh.) Thorburn, Walter
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carm'thn.) Thornton, Percy M.
Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.) Morton, Arthur H. A.(Dep'fd.) Tollemache, Henry James
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Mount, William George Tritton, Charles Ernest
Jenkins, Sir John Jones Muntz, Philip A. Valentia, Viscount
Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grah'm (Bute Ward, Hn. Robert A (Crewe)
Johnston, William (Belfast) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Warr, Augustus Frederick
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Newdigate, Francis Alexander Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras)
Kay-Shuttle worth, Rt. Hn. Sir U. Nicol, Donald Ninian Webster, Sir R. E. (I of W.)
Kenyon, James Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Kimber, Henry Paulton, James Mellor Whitmore, Charles Algernon
King, Sir Henry Seymour Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Knowles, Lees Percy, Earl Williams, Jos. Powell (Birm.)
Lafone, Alfred Pierpoint, Robert Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Laurie, Lieut.- General Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Lawrence, Sir E. Durning- (Corn Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Horace Curzon Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wyndham, George
Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Leighton, Stanley- Purvis, Robert Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool.) Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Royds, Clement Molyneux Anstruther and Lord Stanley.
Lowles, John Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
NOES.
Allan, William (Gateshead) Hogan, James Francis O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Allen, Wm. (Newc. under Lyme) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) O' Kelly, James
Allison, Robert Andrew Jacoby, James Alfred Oldroyd, Mark
Ambrose, Robert (Mayo, W.) Joicey, Sir James Power, Patrick Joseph
Atherley-Jones, L. Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Kitson, Sir James Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Baker, Sir John Langley, Batty Schwann, Charles E.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Lewis, John Herbert Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Blake, Edward Lloyd-George, David Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Lough, Thomas Spicer, Albert
Caldwell, James Lowther, Rt. Hn. J. W. (Cumblnd.) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Cameron, Sir Charles (Glasgow) Macaleese, Daniel Thomas, Alfd. (Glamorgan, E.)
Cawley, Frederick M'Cartan, Michael Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)
Channing, Francis Allston M'Ghee, Richard Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh.) M'Kenna, Reginald Wilson, John (Govan)
Clough, Walter Owen Maden, John Henry Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro')
Dillon, John Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Woods, Samuel
Donelan, Captain A. Moore, Count (Londonderry) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Norton, Capt. Cecil William Yoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Gold, Charles O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) MacNeill and Mr. Pirie.

Motion made, and Question proposed— That Mr. Wharton be one other Member of the Committee."—(Mr. Anstruther.)

*MR. PIRIE

I oppose the name of the honourable Gentleman upon the ground that the Committee is becoming of a more and more one-sided description. The House may not be aware of the fact that in former years Joint Committees were composed of double the number of Members from both sides of this House compared to the number of Members from the House of Lords. As the House of Lords at the present time is particularly Conservative, this brings out with greater force how the proposed composition of this Joint Committee will be of a one-sided character. That is very much in opposition of the intentions of the Government as stated last year. Last year there was a Committee of this House appointed to meet the House of Lords. The honourable Member for Dumfries was a member of it, and a few oilier Members

from this side of the House, and the national interests were represented, but this year it is one-sided in every way, and it is for that reason more than any other that I, as a Scotch Member, object. We in Scotland have to bear the burden—the unprofitable burden —of keeping up the House of Lords, and it is only right that we should have the power of regulating the salaries of the officials of the House of Lords in comparison with those of the salaries of this House. It is on this ground that I oppose the honourable Member whose name is before the Committee. If it was possible to increase the number of the Members of this House on the Committee I would not object so strongly, but as only five, according to the present arrangements, can be on the Committee the only redress we have is to object as much as we can.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes. 220; Noes, 69— (Division List No. 32.)

AYES.
Aird, John Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Fletcher, Sir Henry
Ambrose, William (Middlesex) Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor.) Flower, Ernest
Arrol, Sir William Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Folkestone, Viscount
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H. Charrington, Spencer Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Fry, Lewis
Bailey, James (Walworth) Coghill, Douglas Harry Galloway, William Johnson
Baillie. James E.B. (Inverness) Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Garfit, William
Baird, John George Alexander Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Balcarres, Lord Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Giles, Charles Tyrrell
Baldwin, Alfred Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leonard H. Gilliat, John Sanders
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r) Cranborne, Viscount Goldsworthy, Major-General
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds) Cripps, Charles Alfred Gordon, Hon. John Edward
Banbury, Frederick George Cubitt, Hon. Henry Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith- (Hunts) Currie, Sir Donald Goschen, Rt Hn G. J.(St. G'rge's)
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Curzon, Viscount Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin. Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Gourley, Sir Edwd. Temperley
Reach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Dalkeith, Earl of Graham, Henry Robert
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants) Davenport, W. Bromley Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Beckett, Ernest William Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bethell, Commander Denny, Colonel Gull, Sir Cameron
Rhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Biddulph, Michael Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.
Bill, Charles Dorington, Sir John Edward Haslett, Sir James Horner
Blundell, Colonel Henry Doughty, George Heath, James
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Heaton, John Henniker
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Helder, Augustus
Brassey, Albert Doxford, William Theodore Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Hickman. Sir Alfred
Brown, Alexander H. Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampst'd)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Egerton, Hon A. de Tatton Hobhouse, Henry
Buxton, Sydney Charles Elliot, Hon. A. Ralhp Douglas Hornby, Sir William Henry
Causton, Richard Knight Ellis, Thos. Ed. (Merionethsh.) Horniman, Frederick John
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh.) Ferguson, Rt. C. Munro (Leith) Howard. Joseph
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Howell, William Tudor
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Fisher, William Hayes Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil
Chaloner, Capt. Rt. G. W. Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)
Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.) Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Milner, Sir Frederick George Spencer, Ernest
Jenkins, Sir John Jones Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton Morgan, Hn. Fd.(Monm'thsh.) Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth)
Johnston, William (Belfast) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carm'thn.) Stewart, Sir M. J. M ' Taggart
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Morley, Charles Breconshire Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Joicey, Sir James Morton, Arthur H. A. (Dep'fd.) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U. Mount, William George Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Kenyon, James Muntz, Philip A. Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grah'm (Bute) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
lumber, Henry Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Thorburn, Walter
King, Sir Henry Seymour Newdigate, Francis Alexander Thornton, Percy M.
Kitson, Sir James Nicol, Donald Ninian Tollemache, Henry James
Knowles, Lees Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford Tritton, Charles Ernest
Laurie, Lieut. -General Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Valentia, Viscount
Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn) Paulton, James Mellor Ward, Hn. Robert A. (Crewe)
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) Ware. Augustus Frederick
Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) Percy, Earl Webster, R.G. (St. Pancras)
Leighton, Stanley Pierpoint, Robert Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wentworth, Brace C. Vernon-
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Horace Curzon Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool.) Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.) Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.)
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Purvis, Robert Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Lowles, John Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Wilson, John (W'cestersh., N.)
Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R.(Bath)
Lucas-Shadwell, William Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Macartney, W. G. Ellison Royds, Clement Molyneux Wyndham, George
Maclean, James Mackenzie Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Maclure, Sir John William Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
M'Calmont, H. L. B.(Cambs.) Rutherford, John Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
M'Ewan, William Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edin., W.) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
M' Killop, James Sharpe, William Edward T. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Malcolm, Ian Shaw-Stewart, M.H.(Renfrew) Anstruther and Lord
Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe Sidebottom, Wm (Derbyshire) Stanley.
Mellor, Rt. Hn. J. W. (Yorks.) Simeon, Sir Barrington
NOES.
Allan, William (Gateshead) Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. Oldroyd, Mark
Ambrose, Robert (Mayo, W.) Hogan, James Francis Power, Patrick Joseph
Atherley-Jones, L. Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Jacoby, James Alfred Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Baker, Sir John Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Schwann, Charles E.
Barlow, John Emmott Langley, Batty Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Lewis, John Herbert Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Blake, Edward Lloyd-George, David Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Logan, John William Spicer, Albert
Caldwell, James Lough, Thomas Stevenson, Francis S.
Cameron, Sir Charles (Glasgow) Macaleese, Daniel Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Cawley, Frederick M'Cartan, Michael Tennant, Harold John
Channing, Francis Allston M'Ghee, Richard Thomas, Alfd. (Glamorgan, E.)
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh.) M'Kenna, Reginald Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)
Clough, Walter Owen Maden, John Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Condon, Thomas Joseph Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Crombie, John William. Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Wilson, John (Govan)
Dillon, John Moore, Count (Londonderry) Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro')
Donelan, Captain A. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Woods, Samuel
Farquharson, Dr. Robert O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Yoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Connor, Jas (Wicklow, W.)
Gold, Charles O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O' Kelly, James Pirie and Mr. MacNeill.

Motion made, and Question proposed— That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records: That Three be the quorum."—(Mr. Anstruther.)

DR. CLARK (Caithness)

I propose to leave out those words. This is a Committee that is thrust upon us, I will not say in consequence of a conspiracy of the two Whips, but it has been thrust upon us. This year there is a new departure altogether as to the principle for which we on this side of the House have fought for the last 20 years, and which we have compelled the Whips on both sides of the House to respect. Up to last year the principle of nationality was carried out, but this year it is thrown aside.

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! The honourable Member must confine himself to the Motion on the paper, "That the Committee have power to send" or persons, papers, and records."

DR. CLARK

If a proper Committee, one in which the great bulk of the House had confidence had been appointed; a Committee which would have received the support of those who were not upon it, we might have been content to have allowed the Motion to pass without discussion. But, unfortunately,

that is not the case. When the Report comes up we shall require to closely debate it, and under the circumstances I do not think it is worth our while to spend any money or give any power to a Committee of this kind. They have appointed a Committee, I will not say to work this matter, because they dare not do so, but they have appointed a Committee upon which a large portion of the country—not England—is not represented, and because of that I shall object and divide the House upon the matter. I beg to move the omission of those words.

*MR. SPEAKER

The simpler course will be to negative the Motion.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 230; Noes, 63.—(Division List No. 33.)

AYES.
Aird, John Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Ambrose, William (Middlesex) Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r) Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond
Arrol, Sir William Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Fletcher, Sir Henry
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Hy. Charrington, Spencer Flower, Ernest
Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Folkestone, Viscount
Bailey, James (Walworth) Coghill, Douglas Harry Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)
Baillie, James E.B. (Inverness) Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Fowler. Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Baird, John George Alexander Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Fry, Lewis
Balcarres, Lord Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Galloway, William Johnson
Baldwin, Alfred Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leonard H. Garfit, William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.) Cranborne, Viscount Gedge, Sydney
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G'rld W. (Leeds Cripps, Charles Alfred Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Banbury, Frederick George Crombie, John William Gilliat, John Saunders
Rarry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hunts) Cubitt, Hon. Henry Goldsworthy, Major-General
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Currie, Sir Donald Gordon, Hon. John Edward
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin Curzon, Viscount Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon
Beaeh, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Dalkeith, Earl of Goschen, Rt Hn G. J.(St. G'rge's)
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants) Davenport, W. Bromley- Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Beckett, Ernest William Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) Gourley, Sir Edwd. Temperley
Bethell, Commander Denny, Colonel Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Greville, Hon. Ronald
Biddulph, Michael Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)
Bill, Charles Dorington, Sir John Edward Gull, Sir Cameron
Blundell, Colonel Henry Doughty, George Haldane, Richard Burdon
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) Doxford, William Theodore Haslett, Sir James Horner
Brassey, Albert Duncombe. Hon. Hubert V. Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart Heath, James
Brown, Alexander H. Egerton, Hn. A. de Tatton Heaton, John Henniker
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas Helder, Augustus
Buxton, Sydney Charles Ellis, Thos. Edw.(Merioneths.) Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Causton, Richard Knight Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Hickman, Sir Alfred
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r) Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampst'd)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Hobhouse, Henry
Cecil, Lord Hugh" (Greenwich) Fisher, William Hayes Hornby, Sir William Henry
Horniman, Frederick John Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire)
Howard, Joseph Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Simeon, Sir Barrington
Howell, William Tudor Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)
Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Milner, Sir Frederick George Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Spencer, Ernest
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.) Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth)
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Morgan, Hn. Fred.(Monm'thsh.) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Jenkins, Sir John Jones Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen) Stevenson, Francis S.
Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton Money, Charles (Breconshire) Stewart, Sir Mark J.M' Taggart
Johnston, William (Belfast) Morton, Arthur H.A.(Dep'fd.) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Mount, William George Stone, Sir Benjamin
Joicey, Sir James Muntz, Philip A. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grah'm (Bute) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Kenyon, James Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Newdigate, Francis Alexander Thorbnrn, Walter
Kimber, Henry Nicol, Donald Ninian Thornton, Percy M.
King, Sir Henry Seymour Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford Tollemache, Henry James
Kitson, Sir James Oldroyd, Mark Tritton, Charles Ernest
Knowles, Lees Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Valentia, Viscount
Laurie, Lieut.-General Paulton, James Mellor Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn) Pease, Herb. Pike(Darlington) Ward, Hn. Robert A. (Crewe)
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Percy, Earl Warr, Augustus Frederick
Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) Pierpoint, Robert Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Leighton, Stanley Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Plunkett, Rt. Hon. Horace C. Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Purvis, Robert Williams, Jos. Powell (Birm.)
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool.) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Wilson, J. W. (W'cestersh., N.)
Lowles, John Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent) Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Royds, Clement Molyneux Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham) Wyndham, George
Lucas-Shadwell, William Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Macartney, W. G. Ellison Rutherford, John Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Maclure, Sir John William Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
M'Calmont, H. L. B.(Cambs.) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
M'Ewan, William Seton-Karr, Henry
M'lver, Sir Lewis (Edin., W.) Sharpe, William Edward T. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
M'Killop, James Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) William Walrond and Mr.
Malcolm, Ian Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew) Anstruther.
NOES.
Allan, William (Gateshead) Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. O' Kelly, James
Allen, Wm.(Newc. under Lyme) Hogan, James Francis Power. Patrick Joseph
Ambrose, Robert (Mayo, W.) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)
Atherley-Jones, L. Jacoby, James Alfred Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Kialoch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Schwann, Charles E.
Baker, Sir John Langley, Batty Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Barlow, John Emmott Lewis, John Herbert Spicer, Albert
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Lloyd-George, David Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Blake, Edward Logan, John William Tennant, Harold John
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Macaleese, Daniel Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Caldwell James MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Thomas, Alfd. (Glamorgan, E.)
Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow) M'Cartan, Michael Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)
Cawley, Frederick M'Ghee, Richard Walton, Jno Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Channing, Francis Allston M'Kenna, Reginald Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Clough, Walter Owen Maden, John Henry Wilson, John (Govan)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlasbro')
Dillon, John Moulton, John Fletcher Woods, Samuel
Donelan, Captain A. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Evans, Sir Fras. H. (South' ton) O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Yoxall, James Henry
Farquharson, Dr. Robert O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Goddard Daniel Ford O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Dr.
Gold, Charles O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Clark and Mr. Pirie.