§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD Or AGRICULTURE (Mr. W. H. LONG,) Liverpool, West DerbyIf the results of a variety of inquiries extending over a 290 considerable period of time, anti if a virtual unanimity of opinion arrived at by distinguished and eminent men of our own time, who have given this subject their careful attention, constitute a claim for the redress of grievances, I think I shall have no difficulty in establishing a very good case for the subject to which I now invite the attention of the House. In 1843 the Poor Law Commission were asked to inquire into the incidence of local taxation—a subject which, like the poor, appears to be always with us, and always the subject of dissatisfaction and inquiry. In their Report there occurs this important passage:
We recognise the grievances to which the tithe-owner and some other classes of ratepayers are subjected in being rated upon the full value of their property.They only qualified that by objecting to the particular form of relief asked for. At a later period, in 1852, Mr. Gladstone, than whom there was no higher authority on questions of rating and taxation, referred in his Budget speech to a proposal by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give some relief to owners of clerical tithe in regard to income tax. He said:The clergy have a real grievance at this moment. It is admitted by all authorities. Professor Jones, Mr. Cornewall Lewis, and every man who has examined the subject of local rating, will tell you that the clergy suffer cruelly by being rated for local taxation upon their gross income.Mr. (afterwards Sir) George Cornewall Lewis was one of those who signed the Report from which I have quoted. Coming down to our own times, the Royal Commission appointed by ourselves has issued an interim Report and two minority Reports. That interim Report is of the most remarkable character, and, together with the evidence, will repay careful examination. Of the fifteen Commissioners twelve signed the interim Report, including Sir John Hibbert (formerly a distinguished Member of this House, and a high authority on questions of rating and taxation), permanent officials of the Treasury, and the town clerks of two of our greatest municipalities. They say that, pending the final Report of the Commission, the case of the parochial incumbent who owns tithe rent-charge might properly be met by some special measure of relief. The minority Report of the right hon. Member for Clackmannan only doubted the expediency of immediate 291 treatment. The Member for East Donegal suggested the inclusion of the clergy in the agricultural rating, and the Member for Hoxton alone told the clergy that they ought to be thankful things were no worse. The other Commissioners practically agreed in the existence of a grievance, and that it was one which ought to be dealt with. In order to illustrate how extraordinary this injustice is, let me take three different kinds of clerical endowment, each amounting to £300 a year. First take an income resulting from money investments, in which case the net deduction is £4 10s. Not a penny of that is liable to rates, so that the net income is £295 10s. Next take the case of an income arising out of glebe. The owner gets the benefit of the old Act, and of the Act of 1896. There the outgoings are £24 4s. 6d., and the net income is £275 15s. 6d. Now, take the case of the income of an incumbent derived solely from tithe at the present value of £300 a year. The outgoings came to £54, and the income falls to £246 5s., because this clergyman alone is called upon to pay rates on his income. Again, take a case in which we distinguish between a clerical and any other tithe owner or ratepayer. In the appendix to the Report of the Local Taxation Commission they take the mean of all these cases and work it out, giving an income of £223 14s. 5d. The percentage of rates paid by the owner of tithe rent-charge is on the average no less than 20.21 of his net income. If you apply the same calculation to an ordinary person, the owner or occupier of an ordinary hereditament, with the same income, you will find that the rates he would pay upon his assessment, which would probably be about one-tenth of his income, fall to 1.2, or, if the rates are at 6s., to 2.4. I venture to say that here is a disparity between these cases which justifies the demand that these people are making upon us—a demand which it is our intention to meet by this measure, of which I hope the House will approve. The decision of the Government to deal with the subject is not a recent one, but it was impossible for us to deal with it until we had before us full materials for consideration, including the interim Report of the Commission, which has been recently furnished. I may say that the measure with which we propose to ask the House to deal is simple, and the House will be glad 292 to hear also that it is brief in its character. We propose that the owners of tithe rent-charge shall in future pay one-half only of the rates to which they are at present liable. The question arises, and it is one in which the House will no doubt take the keenest interest, how is the deficit thereby created to be made up. The first suggestion that would occur to anybody is that the Imperial Exchequer should be the sole source from which to recover the deficit. When we had to deal with agricultural rating it was inevitable that the Imperial Exchequer should make up the deficit. The deficit was so great that it could not be allowed to fall upon the other ratepayers, and, unfortunately, there was no other way by which it could be made up. It was our poverty but not our will that consented, and we had to fall back on the Exchequer. Turning to the local taxation account, we find that there is, compared with the time when it came into existence in 1889–90, an increase of no less than £756,419 under the head alone of Licences and Probate Duty Grant. Comparing this year with last the increase is £143,197. The amount required for the relief to be given by this Bill will be only £87,000. Therefore there is not only sufficient to meet this deficit and a considerable balance to go on with in the ordinary way, but the change in the incidence from a limited class of ratepayers to the whole community is one that will give relief to the particular class concerned without casting upon any other class a burden which anyone can honestly call appreciable. I have precedents for this course. The Public Health Act of 1875 gave the same exemptions to the tithe-owner, and the Baths and Wash-houses Act gave an even larger exemption. Therefore there is a precedent for placing the tithe-owner in a better position than the other ratepayers in regard to the amount of their rates. The machinery of the Bill is simple enough. The collector of rates will forward his demand to the Board of Inland Revenue, who will pay the amount demanded, after deducting that amount from the gross sum of the local taxation account, before transferring that gross sum to the Local Government Board for distribution among the various local authorities. The relief that will be given by the Bill will remove a long-standing injustice in such a way that the burden will 293 not be felt by any of those upon whom it will fall. [Cries of "Why not?"] The reason is that under the existing system, unfortunately, the local authorities who have the spending of the money know beforehand of the fact that increased balances are coming into their hands. That rather tends to extravagance and bad administration. [Opposition cheers.] I can understand that cheer, but I am talking only of increases, and I say that if it were known that these growing amounts were coming at a fixed period, then the position of the local authorities would be much better. Unfortunately, they do not possess that knowledge, and they can only deal with the money when they receive it. These balances are available, and will cover the amount we require for the purposes of this Act; and I venture to say that if we are ever going to deal with this question of local taxation, and remove some of the burdens which press hardly upon certain classes of the ratepayers, it can only be done by some such system as is embodied in this Bill. I ask leave to introduce this measure, which will give substantial relief to a class that has long suffered from gross injustice, by a method which will not impose upon the ratepayers a single fraction of burden of which they need complain—of which, indeed, they would not even know if it were not for the speeches of hon. Gentlemen opposite.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the law with respect to the payment of rates on tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice."—(Mr. Long.)
§ * SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)I feel bound, in the first place, to devote a small portion of the limited time at my disposal to expressing my surprise and entering my earnest protest against the procedure adopted in this matter. This method of introducing Bills at this period of the evening with a limited discussion was designed and adopted, as is shown by reference to Hansard, to facilitate the introduction of what are known as Departmental or non-controversial Bills. In the last Parliament I remember how loud and long were the re-monstrances addressed by hon. Gentlemen opposite against the intention again and again of the Government of the day 294 to bring in Bills in this manner, on the ground that from their importance or their contentious nature they were not fitted for such treatment. At all events, now it is surely time we had some definite understanding and rule in the matter. Private Members' Bills can be introduced without any discussion at all, and that is sometimes used as an argument in favour of this method; but the Government have limited discussion for their Bills, and the present arrangement leaves it entirely at the discretion of the Government of the day to say which of the modes will suit them best, irrespective of the desires and interests of the rest of the House. However important and however contentious a Bill may be, as this is, they may introduce it in this manner provided only it be short; and, on the other hand, if it is advantageous for them to have a full explanation and discussion, then they can adopt that course. All I ask is that we should have some rule which is fair and equal all round. I commend that, not only to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, but also to the House itself, as a matter on which at least there ought to be sonic regular and fixed rule laid down. What is the nature of this Bill? It is a Bill to relieve certain clergy from rates. Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer dealt with this question. I wish he had dealt with it on this occasion also, but the Minister for Agriculture has been brought in—we know not why. We have, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer's opinion which he expressed last year. He said:
It is all very well to say that you ought not to tax clergymen in this way more than the lawyer or the doctor; but, as a matter of fact, they have been taxed in this way for centuries past.In fact, in a previous sentence he appears to have said they had been taxed since the clays of Queen Elizabeth, and although that particular reference seems to have singularly disappeared from Hansard, it is authenticated by the fact that in the subsequent Debate references were made to it. The right hon. Gentleman corrects his speech and strikes out something which is not absolutely to his mind on second thoughts; but unfortunately he cannot strike out the references to it in the subsequent Debate. I do not insist, however, upon Queen Elizabeth, because "centuries past" answers my 295 purpose as well. The right hon. Gentleman goes on to say:That being so, to ask the Government to relieve property from taxation which has been so long subject to it, either at the expense of other ratepayers or at the expense of taxpayers generally, is not a practical request.
§ * THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,) Bristol, N.That quotation does not accurately convey the meaning of what I said. I was alluding to the demands of some clergy that they should be entirely exempted from rating. That is what I was answering.
§ * SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANWe shall have opportunities of elucidating that point at a subsequent stage; but those words—and very explicit words they are—are not invalidated by the fact that towards the close of his speech the right hon. Gentleman referred to this Royal Commission that was sitting, and said he waited—in fact, he rather invited—the Royal Commission to give him, and give the Government, some guidance upon the subject. We have been told on the highest possible authority—the authority of one who is not only Prime Minister, but Foreign Secretary—that, in his opinion, Royal Commissions are for the most part of small account. They are, at all events, very convenient to certain Governments. They may either be a means of enshrouding and postponing some subject which it is awkward to deal with, or, as we have seen, they may furnish a means of suggesting desired legislation for which it is difficult otherwise to find an excuse. This is a manœuvre with which we are becoming familiar. It is the easiest thing in the world. You desire to reward or conciliate some section of the community by endowing them with exceptional advantages at the cost of other people. A Royal Commission is sitting on the general subject applicable to the whole community. You get the Commission to issue an interim Report in favour of some particular advantage being given to a section of the community, and then you come forward with that particular demand. It is an ingenious device, but it loses its force when it is repeated so often as to become perfectly transparent. What is the case before us, apart from technicalities with which we have to-day no time to deal? There are certain clergymen of the Church of England whose income comes from tithe 296 or glebe land, and they find so heavy are the burdens of local taxation that their income, already poor, is reduced so as to be altogether inadequate. And this grievance has been greatly aggravated by the legislation of the present Government, who, a few years ago, gave relief to the landlord through his tenant.—[Ministerial cries of "No"]—well, say the tenant without the landlord if you like—gave relief to a favoured class by relieving them from half their rates, and necessarily imposed the other half on all the other ratepayers, including these very clergymen who now make complaint. I have the greatest sympathy with these unfortunate clergymen. I believe in many cases they are hardly in a position properly to discharge the duties of their high and important office. They ought to be relieved, but who is to relieve them? They are to be relieved, according to the right hon. Gentleman, at the expense of the ratepayers out of moneys which, if they did not go to this purpose, would go to some other useful purpose beneficial to the community. The landlords have already been helped ["No, no"], now it is to be the clergymen. When is the turn of the householder and the shopkeeper and the tradesman and the community at large to come? What is this, in the name of common-sense, this £87,000, but a fresh endowment of the Church of England. I am not aware that at the present moment there is such an overweening and universal confidence in the clergy of the Church of England that a proposal of this kind is particularly opportune. But passing from that, if the incomes of these clergy are insufficient, as. I believe in many cases they are, for the proper discharge of their duties and the maintenance of their position; they are the servants of a Church, the richest far and away of all in the country—a Church which has amongst its members almost all the influential classes in society—the classes of exalted and wealthy position—and they are to come to the ratepayer of the country to make good this little deficiency in the incomes of the clergy. There is not a free and independent Church in the Kingdom so mean and so poor that it would not scorn to do it. I will not quote the case of what you call Nonconformist bodies, who have a different theory and a different ideal from yours in these matters. I will take the case of an Established Church well known to the 297 Leader of the House. The Church of Scotland is a poor Church; it does not include among its members the most exalted and wealthy of the community. It is a Church formed from the great mass of the trading, farming, and labouring classes in Scotland, at least it has its share, with the other Presbyterian Churches, of those classes. That Church, a few years ago, discovered—it did not dawn upon it, but it came home to it—that a large number of its ministers were not in receipt of a sufficient salary to maintain their position. What did it do? It instituted a fund, collected subscriptions, and fixed a certain minimum income which every one of its ministers was to receive, and that has been done by the freewill effort and self-sacrifice of the people of the Church of Scotland. Here is an instance of an Established Church which takes the right way in dealing with a difficulty of this sort. That is the way, and not to exact aid from the already burdened community, many members of which are every whit as much
§ in need of our generosity as the clergy of the Church of England. The case will be argued afterwards on its technical merits, but these are the general considerations which prompt me to declare an open and determined hostility to the object of the Bill. I began by saying I protested against a Bill of this importance being introduced by the Government in this manner with a full knowledge of the strong feeling which existed upon it, and in order to emphasise this opinion I beg to ask you, Sir, if you would, in the exercise of the power given you, put the question to the House that the Debate be now adjourned.
§ * MR. SPEAKERThe right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition desiring to take the opinion of the House on the question of the Adjournment, I will put that question.
§ Question put, "That the Debate be now Adjourned."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 162; Noes, 243. (Division List No. 203.)
301| AYES. | ||
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Edwards, Owen Morgan | Labouchere, Henry |
| Allen,W. (Newc. under Lyme) | Ellis, John Edward | Lambert, George |
| Ambrose, Robert | Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) | Langley, Batty |
| Arrol, Sir William | Evans,Sir F.H. (Southampton) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Evershed, Sydney | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) |
| Austin, M. | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Leng, Sir John |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Farrell, Jas. P. (Cavan, W.) | Leuty, Thomas Richmond |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Fenwick, Charles | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Ferguson,R.C. Munro (Leith) | Lloyd-George, David |
| Billson, Alfred | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Logan, John William |
| Birrell, Augustine | Flynn, James Christopher | Lough Thomas |
| Blake, Edward | Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) | Lyell, Sir Leonard |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Fowler, Right Hon Sir Henry | Macaleese, Daniel |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Fox, Dr. Joseph Francis | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Gibney, James | M'Ewan, William |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Goddard, Daniel Ford | M'Ghee, Richard |
| Caldwell, James | Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton | M'Hugh E. (Armagh, S.) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Hammond, John (Carlow) | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Carmichael, Sir T D. Gibson- | Hayden, John Patrick | M'Killop, James |
| Carvill, Patrick G. Hamilton | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | M'Leod, John |
| Cawley, Frederick | Hazell, Walter | Maddison, Fred. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Healy, Thomas J. (Wexford) | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe |
| Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh. | Healy, Timothy M. (N.Louth) | Mellor, Rt. Hon. J. W.(Yorks) |
| Clough, Walter Owen | Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. | Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand |
| Commins, Andrew | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. | Molloy, Bernard Charles |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Holland, W. H. (York, W.R.) | Montagu, Sir S. (Whitech'pl) |
| Courtney, Rt. Hon.LeonardH. | Horniman, Frederick John | Moore, Arthur (Londonderry) |
| Crilly, Daniel | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) |
| Crombie, John William | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Morris, Samuel |
| Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Morton, E. J. C. (Devenport) |
| Daly, James | Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. | Moulton, John Fletcher |
| Davies,M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Joicey, Sir James | Murnaghan, George |
| Davitt, Michael | Jones, David Brynmor (Swan.) | Norton, Captain C. William |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Dillon, John | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Kearley, Hudson E. | O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Kilbride, Denis | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Kinloch, Sir John George S. | Oldroyd, Mark |
| Duckworth, James | Kitson, Sir James | Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) |
| Palmer, G. Wm. (Reading) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Souttar, Robinson | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. |
| Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb) | Spicer, Albert | Wedderburn, Sir William |
| Perks, Robert William | Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Steadman, William Charles | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Pilkington,Sir. G.A.(L.,S.W.) | Stevenson, Francis S. | Williams, John C. (Notts.) |
| Pinkerton, John | Strachey, Edward | Wills, Sir William Henry |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Stuart, James (Shoreditch) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.) | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. | Woodall, William |
| Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) | Thomas, Alf.(Glamorgan, E.) | Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'rs |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr) | Woods, Samuel |
| Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) | Tuite, James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Ure, Alexander | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and |
| Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Wallace, Robert | Mr. Causton. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Hanbury,Rt.Hon. Robt. Wm. |
| Aird, John | Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Hardy, Laurence |
| Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden | Chelsea, Viscount | Hare, Thomas Leigh |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Clarke, SirEdward(Plymouth) | Hatch, Ernest F. George |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Cochrane. Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Heath. James |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Arnold, Alfred | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hill, Rt Hn A.Staveley (Staffs) |
| Arnold-Forster Hugh O. | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Colomb,SirJohnCharlesReady | Hoare, Edw. B. (Hampstead) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) |
| Bagot,Capt.Josceline FitzRoy | Cox, Irwin Edw. B. | Hobhouse, Henry |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Cranborne, Viscount | Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Horn by, Sir William Henry |
| Balfour, Rt.Hn.A.J.(Manch'r) | Cruddas, William Donaldson | Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W. (Leeds) | Curzon, Viscount | Jackson, Rt.Hon.Wm. Lawies |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Barry,Rt.Hn.A.H.S.-(Hunts.) | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Jolliffe, Hon. H. George |
| Barry, Sir FrancisT. (Windsor) | Dixon-Hartland, Sir. F. | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Dorington, Sir John Edward | Kimber, Henry |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Doughty, George | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Knowles, Lees |
| Bech,Rt.Hn.Sir.M.H.(Br'st'l) | Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. | Laurie, Lieut. General |
| Bach, W. W. Bramston Hants) | Doxford, William Theodore | Lawrence, SirEDurning-(Corn |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Drage, Geoffrey | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. | Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Dyke, Rt.Hn.SirWilliam Hart | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Bethell, Commander | Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas | Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset) |
| Biddulph, Michael | Fardell, Sir T. George | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn. (Swan. |
| Bill, Charles | Fellowes,Hon.Ailwyn Edward | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. |
| Blakiston-Houston, John | Fergusson, Rt.Hn.Sir.J.(Man.) | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) |
| Bolitho, Thomas Bedford | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) |
| Bond, Edward | Fisher, William Hayes | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller |
| Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme | FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose- | Lorne, Marquess of |
| Boulnois, Edmund | FitzWygram, General Sir F. | Lowe, Francis William |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Lowther, Rt. Hn. J. (Kent) |
| Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex) | Fletcher, Sir Henry | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Brassey, Albert | Folkestone, Viscount | Lucas-Shad well, William |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Fry, Lewis | Macartney, W. G. Ellison |
| Brookfield, A. Montagu | Galloway, William Johnson | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Brown, Alexander H. | Gibbons, J. Lloyd | Maclean, James Mackenzie |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Ballard, Sir Harry | Gorst,Rt Hon.Sir John Eldon | M'Calmont,Col.J.(Antrim,E.) |
| Butcher, John George | Goschen,RtHnG.J (StGeorge's | M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinb'rgh,W |
| Campbell, Rt.Hn.JA (Glasgow | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Malcolm, Ian |
| Carlile, William Walter | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Manners, Lord E. Wm. J. |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Graham, Henry Robert | Maple, Sir.J. Blundell |
| Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.) | Greene,W.Raymond-(Cambs.) | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.) | Gunter, Colonel | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J. |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.(Birm.) | Hamond, Sir C. (Newcastle) | Milner, Sir Frederick George |
| Milton, Viscount | Purvis, Robert | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Milward, Colonel Victor | Ranki, Sir James | Thorburn, Walter |
| Monk, Charles James | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Thornton. Percy M. |
| Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool) | Tollemache, Hemy James |
| Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Ridley,Rt.Hn. SirMatthew W. | Tomlinson, W. Edw. Murray |
| More, R. J. (Shropshire) | Ridley,Rt.Hn.Chas. Thomson | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) | Robertson, H. (Hackney) | Usborne, Thomas |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter | Valentia, Viscount |
| Morton, A. H. A. (Depford) | Rou d James | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Mount, William George | Russell,Gen.F.S.(Cheltenh'w) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. |
| Murray,Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Rutherford, John | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Newark, Viscount | Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.) |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Savory, Sir Joseph | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford | Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard | Wilson-Todd, W. H (Yorks.) |
| O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Seton-Karr, Henry | Wode onse Rt.Hn E.R (Bth) |
| Orr-Ewins, Cha les Lindsay | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Pease, H. Pike (Darlington) | Sidebottom, Wm. (Derhysh.) | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Penn, John | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Wyndham, George |
| Percy, Earl | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H. |
| Pierpoint, Robert | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Pilkington,R.(Lancs.,Newton) | Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) | Young,Commander (Berks,E.) |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Stock, James Henry | Sir William Walrond and |
| Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Mr. Anstruther. |
§ Original question put. The House divided: Ayes, 247; Noes, 169. (Division List No. 204.)
305| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. |
| Aird, John | Brookfield, A Montagu | Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. | Brown, Alexander H. | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Brymer, William Ernest | Elliot, Hon. A. Ra'ph Douglas |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Bullard, Sir Harry | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Butcher, John George | Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward |
| Arnold, Alfred | Campbell, Rt. Hn.J. A.(Gl'sg'w | Fergusson, Rt Hn.Sir J.(Mane |
| Arnold Forster, Hugh O. | Carlile, William Walter | Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs) | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannaryne |
| Atkinson, Right Hon. John | Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.) | Firbank, Joseph Thom.s |
| Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Cecil, E. (Hertford, East) | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- |
| Balcarres, Lord | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manc | Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Flannery, Sir Fortescue |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds | Chamberlain, Rt Hon.J.(Bir. | Fletcher, Sir Henry |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Folkestone, Vi-count |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Fry, Lewis |
| Barry, Rt. Hn.A. H. S. -(Hunts | Chelsea, Vi-count | Galloway, Wm. Johnson |
| Barry, Sir Francis T. (Winds'r | Clarke, Sir E (Plymouth) | Gibbons, J. Lloyd |
| Bartley, George C. T | Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. | Gibbs,Hn. Vicary(St. Albans) |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Gordon, Hon. John Edward |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Gorst, Rt Hon G. J. Eldon |
| Beach, Rt.Hn. Sir M.H (Brs't'l | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Goschen, Rt. Hon. G. J. |
| Beach, W. W Bramston(Hants | Colomo, Sir John C. Ready | Goschen, George J. (Susex) |
| Beckett, Ernes William | Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. | Goulding Edward Alfred |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Cox, Irwin Edward B. | Graham, Henry Robert |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Cranborne, Viscount | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Beresford Lord Charles | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Greene,W.Raymond (Cambs.) |
| Bethell, Commander | Cruddas, William Donaldson | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Biddulph, Michael | Curzon, Viscount | Gunter, Colonel |
| Bill, Charles | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Halsey, Thomas Frederick |
| Blakiston-Houston, John | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield. | Hamilton, Bt. Hn. Lord G. |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Hamond, Sir C. (Newcastle) |
| Bolitho, Thomas Bedford | Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm. |
| Bond, Edward | Dorington, Sir John Edward | Hardy, Laurence |
| Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme | Doughty, George | Hare, Thomas Leigh |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hatch, Ernest Frederick G. |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. | Heath, James |
| Bowles, Captain H. F. (M'dl'x | Doxford, William Theodore | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Brassey, Albert | Drage, Geoffrey | Henderson, Alexander |
| Hill, Rt. Hn. A. S. (Staffs.) | Maxwell,Rt.Hn.SirHerbertE. | Samuel Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bris.) | Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Hoare, E. B(Hampstead) | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Savory, Sir Joseph |
| Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | MilbankSirPowlettChas.John | Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard |
| Hobhouse, Henry | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow) | Milner, Sir Frederick George | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Hornby, Sir William Henry | Milton, Viscount | Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) |
| Houston, R. P. | Milward, Colonel Victor | Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.) |
| Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn | Monk, Charles James | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Jackson, Rt.Hn. Wm Lawies | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Smith, Hon. W.F.D. (Strand) |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | More,Robt.Jasper(Shropshire) | Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) |
| Jolliffe, Hon. H. George | Morgan,Hn.Fred.(Monrn'thsh | Stanley, Lord (Lanes) |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. | Morrell, George Herbert | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. |
| Kimber, Henry | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Stock, James Henry |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour | Mount, William George | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Knowles, Lees | Murray,Rt.Hn.A.Gr'h'm(Bute | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Laurie, Lieut.-General | Murray,Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Thorburn, Walter |
| Lawrence,SirE.Durning-(Crn. | Newark, Viscount | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) | Nicholson, William Graham | Todemache, Henry James |
| Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw.Murray |
| Lees, Sir Elliot (Birkenhead) | Northcote, Hon.SirH.Stafford | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Usborne, Thomas |
| Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Valentia, Viscount |
| Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn (Swan.) | Peace,HerbertPikeDarlington | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Penn, John | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Percy, Earl | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. |
| Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) | Pierpoint, Robert | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon |
| Long, Rt. Hn W. (Liverpl.) | Pilkington,R.(Lancs. Newton) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.) |
| Lorne, Marquess of | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Lowe, Francis William | Pretyman, Ernest George | Wilson-Tod, W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Lowther, Rt. Hon. J. (Kent) | Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.) | Wodehouse,Rt.Hn.E.R. (Bath |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Purvis, Robert | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Lucas-Shadwell, William | Rankin, Sir James | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Wyndham, George |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool) | Wyndam-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Maclean, James Mackenzie | Ridley,Rt. Hn.SirMatthewW. | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| W'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Ritchie,Rt.Hn.Chas. Thomson | Young, Commander (Berks,E. |
| M'Calmont,Col.J. (Antrim,E.) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb.,W.) | Round, James | |
| Malcolm, Ian | Russell,Gen. F.S. (Cheltenh'm) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Manners, Lord EdwardWm. J. | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Maple, Sir John Blundell | Rutherford, John |
| NOES. | ||
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Crilly, Daniel | Gibney, James |
| Allen, Wm. (Newc.-u.-Lyme) | Crombie, John William | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Ambrose, Robert | Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) | Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton |
| Arrol, Sir William | Daly, James | Hammond, John (Carlow) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Dalziel, James Henry | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Atherley Jones, L. | Davies, M. V. (Cardigan) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Ch. Seale- |
| Austin, M. | Davitt, Michael | Hazen, Walter |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles) | Healy, Thomas J. (Wexford) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Dillon, John | Healy, Timothy M. (N. Louth) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Donelan, Captain A. | Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. |
| Billson, Alfred | Doogan, P. C. | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. |
| Birrell, Augustine | Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Holland, W. H. (York, W. R.) |
| Blake, Edward | Duckworth, James | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Edwards, Owen Morgan | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Ellis, John Edward | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton) | Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. |
| Caldwell, James | Evershed, Sydney | Joicey, Sir James |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | JonesDavidBrynmor(Swansea |
| Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson | Farrell, James P. (Cavan,W.) | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) |
| Carvill, Pat. Geo. Hamilton | Fenwick, Charles | Jordan, Jeremiah |
| Cawley, Frederick | Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Kilbride, Denis |
| Clark, Dr G. B. (Caithness-sh | Flynn, James Christopher | Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth |
| Clough, Walter Owen | Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) | Kitson, Sir James |
| Commins. Andrew | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Labouchere, Henry |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Fox, Dr. Joseph Francis | Lambert, George |
| Langley, Batty | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Lawson,SirWilfrid(Cumb'land | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Strachey, Edward |
| Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) | Stuart, James (Shoreditch) |
| Leng, Sir John | O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Leuty, Thomas Richmond | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Oldroyd, Mark | Thomas,Abel (Carmarthen,E.) |
| Lloyd-George, David | Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) | Thomas,Alfred(Glamorgan,E. |
| Logan, John William | Palmer, Geo. Wm. (Reading) | Thomas, David A (Merthyr) |
| Lough, Thomas | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Tuite, James |
| Lyell, Sir Leonard | Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) | Ure, Alex alder |
| MacAleese, Daniel | Perks, Robert William | Wallace, Robert |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Phillips, John Wynford | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| M'Ewan, William | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| M'Ghee, Richard | Pilkington,SirG.A.(LancsSW | Wedderburn, Sir William |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Pinkerton, John | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| M'Killop, James | Pirie, Duncan V. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| M'Leod, John | Power, Patrick Joseph | Williams,JohnCarvell (Notts.) |
| Maddison, Fred. | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | Wills, Sir William Henry |
| Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe | Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.) | Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull) |
| Mellor, Rt. Hn. J. W. (Yorks) | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand | Robson, William Snowdon | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Molloy, Bernard Charles | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) | Woodall, William |
| Moore, Arthur (Londonderry) | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Hudders. |
| Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Woods, Samuel |
| Morris, Samuel | Sinclair,Capt. John(Forfarsh.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Morton, E J. C. (Devonport) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) | |
| Moulton, John Fletcher | Souttar, Robinson | |
| Murnaghan, George | Spicer, Albert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil Williams | Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. | Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. |
| Nussey, Thomas Williams | Steadman, William Charles |
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Long and Mr. Solicitor-General.