HC Deb 08 June 1899 vol 72 cc731-5

Order road, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed (6th June) on consideration of the Bill, as athended:—

And which Amendment was— In page 2, line 27, after the word 'enumerated' to insert the words 'and tested.'"—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

Question put and agreed to,

Other Amendments made.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 27, after the word 'form,' to insert the words 'but does not include any County Council or Municipal Corporation bills repayable not later than twelve months from their date or any overdraft at the bank or other loan raised for a merely temporary purpose for a period not exceeding twelve months.'"—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. J. P. SMITH (Lanark, Partick)

I think that no corporation could wish to keep raising money permanently in a matter of this sort. I would suggest that the words "for a period not exceeding twelve months" should be left out, although, under the circumstances, I will not move any Amendment.

MR. CALDWELL (Lanark, Mid.)

I desire to point out that the Stamp Act refers to bills of exchange and promissory notes. In this Amendment you are not adopting any definition of the word "bills." I have no doubt whatever that the object which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has in view is that promissory notes shall be included as well as bills of exchange; but under this short description by saying "corporation bills" it is not defined, and it has no corresponding term. It seems to me that there is a little ambiguity, and in order to make it clear I would suggest to him that after the word "bills" he should add the words "of exchange or promissory notes."

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 2, after the word 'bills,' to insert the words' of exchange or promissory notes.'" (Mr. Caldwell.) Question proposed, "That those words be inserted in the proposed Amendment."


The hon. Member was good enough to call my attention to this point some little time ago, and I noticed that he had included in his Amendment the words "promissory notes." I thought I had convinced the hon. Member that the inclusion of these words is quite unnecessary, for I notice that, as his Amendment now stands on the paper, the words "promissory notes" are omitted. I have looked into the matter and taken the advice of the Inland Revenue, and I have been assured that these words are not only unnecessary, but that they would also be misleading. A promissory note is a loan raised for a period not exceeding twelve months, and consequently it is covered by these words.


Whilst I still think that it would be better to follow the phraseology of the Stamp Act, 1891, and use both terms— "bills of exchange and promissory notes," yet, having regard to the explanation just given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and which will appear on the Records of the House, that promissory notes are included in the term "bills," I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Original question again proposed.

SIR CHARLES CAMERON (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

I think it is necessary to leave out the words "for a temporary purpose," because if money is temporarily applied to some permanent work the borrowing body might be called upon to pay duty twice upon the same money. I do not think it is the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tax these loans twice, and I have put down a couple of Amendments intended to obviate this. In other respects the Amendment is fairly satisfactory.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 3, after the word 'raised' to leave out the words 'for a merely temporary purpose.'"—(Sir Charles Cameron.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."


I believe that these words are necessary for the purpose of the clause, and if they were omitted it would be possible for a corporation to borrow for twelve months, and to continue that loan borrowing for an indefinite period of years and practically make it a permanent loan. I think the hon. Member will see that such a process would be very unfair.


I should like to know what is meant by "a merely temporary purpose." My constituents hold that the words might be held not to apply when the temporary loan is applied to permanent work.


That is not so.

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Harwood, George Richardson. J. (Durham, S. E.)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Rickett, J. Compton
Broadhurst, Henry Hedderwick, Thomas CharlesH Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Burns, John Horniman, Frederick John Robson, William Snowdon
Burt, Thomas Humphreys-Owen. Arthur C. Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Caldwell, James Jacoby, James Alfred Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Causton, Richard Knight Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Cawley, Frederick Lawson, Sir W. (Cumbland) Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Channing, Francis Allston Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Spicer, Albert
Clough, Walter Owen Leng, Sir John Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Colville, John MacAleese, Daniel Strachey, Edward
Dalziel, James Henry M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Davitt, Michael M'Ghee, Richard Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dillon, John M'Kenna, Reginald Weir, James Galloway
Doogan, P. C. M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Maddison, Fred Williams, John Carvell (Notts
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Wilson, Henry J, (York, W. R.)
Fenwick, Charles Nussey, Thomas Willans Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Oldroyd, Mark Wilson, John (Govan)
Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) Palmer, Geo. Wm. (Reading) Wilson, JosH(Middlesbrough)
Fox, Dr. Joseph Francis Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) Yoxall, James Henry
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. J. Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Goddard, Daniel Ford Philipps, John Wynford Sir Charles Cameron and Mr. Provand.
Griffith, Ellis J. Pickersgill, Edward Hare

That being so I will not press this Amendment.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Words inserted.


I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have any objection to my next Amendment, which simply makes the meaning of the clause more clear.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 22, after tile word 'called' to insert the words: 'But provided that the duty under this section shall be paid by a local authority only once in respect of the exercise by them of borrowing powers, and shall not be paid in respect of money reborrowed by them to replace money borrowed which may have been paid off otherwise than by means of a statutory sinking fund.'"—(Sir Charles Cameron.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


I think the hon. Baronet will recognise what my right hon. friend said with regard to temporary loans. If these words are added they will introduce a totally new principle, which in practice would be most mischievous.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 69; Noes, 168. (Division list No. 182.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. Fisher, William Hayes Morton,ArthurH.A. (Deptford
Anson, Sir William Reynell FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose- Mount, William George
Arnold, Alfred Flower, Ernest Murray,RtHnAGraham(Bute
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Folkestone, Vicount Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)
Balcarres, Lord Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Newdigate, Francis Alexander
Balfour, Rt.Hn.A.J.(Manch'r) Garfit, William Nicol, Donald Ninian
Balfour,RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds Gibbons, J. Lloyd Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford
Banbury, Frederick George Gibbs,Hn.A.G.H. (City of Lon) Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Gibbs, Hon.Vicary(St.Albans) Pease, Herbert P. (Darling'n)
Bartley, George C. T. Giles, Charles Tyrell Penn, John
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Phillpotts, Captain Arthur
Beach,Rt.Hn.SirM.H.(Bristol) Goldsworthy, Major- General Pilkington,R. (Lanes, Newton)
Beckett, Ernest William Gordon, Hon. John Edward Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Gorst, Rt Hn G J (St George's) Priestley,Sir W.Overend(Edin
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bigwood, James Goulding, Edward Alfred Purvis, Robert
Billson, Alfred Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) Rankin, Sir James
Bullard, Sir Harry Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hardy, Laurence Ridley, Rt. Hon. SirMatt. W.
Carlile, William Walter Hare, Thomas Leigh Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Heath, James Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.) Heaton, John Henniker Robinson, Brooke
Cecil, Ld. Hugh (Greenwich) Henderson, Alexander Rothschild,Hon. Lionel Walter
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hoare, Edw. B. (Hampstead) Round, James
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.(Birm.) Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Russell, Gen. F. S. (Chelt'h'm)
Chamberlain,J.Austin(Wore'r Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Houston, R. P. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Charrington, Spencer Howell, William Tudor Sharpe, William Edward T.
Clare, Octavius Leigh Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Simeon, Sir Barrington
Clarke, SirEdward(Plymouth) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Stock, James Henry
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Kemp, George Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cook, Fred Lucas (Lambeth) Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'd Uni.
Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) Kimber, Henry Thornton, Percy M.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Cox, Irwin Edw. B. (Harrow) Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Cranborne, Viscount Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) Valentia, Viscount
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Loder, Gerald Walter E. Wanklyn, James Leslie
Curzon, Viscount Long,RtHnWalter(Liverpool) Warr, Augustus Frederick
Dalkeith, Earl of Lucas-Shadwell, William Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Macartney, W. G. Ellison Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-L.)
Denny, Colonel Macdona, John Cumming Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. MacIver, David (Liverpool) Williams, Jos. Powell- (Birm.
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Maclure, Sir John William Wilson,J.W.(Worcestersh.N.)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Wodehouse,Rt.Hn.E.R. (Bath
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs.) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. M'Killop, James Wylie, Alexander
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V Maxwell,, Rt Hn.SirHerbertE. Wyndham, George
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Fellowes,Hon.AilwynEdward Milward, Colonel Victor Younger, William
Fergusson,Rt.Hn.Sirj.(M'nc'r Monk, Charles James
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Finch, George H. Morgan,Hn Fred. (Monm'thsh. Sir William Walrond and
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Morrell, George Herbert Mr. Anstruther.

Another Amendment made.

Bill to be read the third time upon Tuesday next.