§ Order road, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed (6th June) on consideration of the Bill, as athended:—
§
And which Amendment was—
In page 2, line 27, after the word 'enumerated' to insert the words 'and tested.'"—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ Question put and agreed to,
§ Other Amendments made.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 5, line 27, after the word 'form,' to insert the words 'but does not include any County Council or Municipal Corporation bills repayable not later than twelve months from their date or any overdraft at the bank or other loan raised for a merely temporary purpose for a period not exceeding twelve months.'"—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. J. P. SMITH (Lanark, Partick)I think that no corporation could wish to keep raising money permanently in a matter of this sort. I would suggest that the words "for a period not exceeding twelve months" should be left out, although, under the circumstances, I will not move any Amendment.
§ MR. CALDWELL (Lanark, Mid.)I desire to point out that the Stamp Act refers to bills of exchange and promissory notes. In this Amendment you are not adopting any definition of the word "bills." I have no doubt whatever that the object which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has in view is that promissory notes shall be included as well as bills of exchange; but under this short description by saying "corporation bills" it is not defined, and it has no corresponding term. It seems to me that there is a little ambiguity, and 732 in order to make it clear I would suggest to him that after the word "bills" he should add the words "of exchange or promissory notes."
§
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
In line 2, after the word 'bills,' to insert the words' of exchange or promissory notes.'" (Mr. Caldwell.)
Question proposed, "That those words be inserted in the proposed Amendment."
§ *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH, Bristol, W.)The hon. Member was good enough to call my attention to this point some little time ago, and I noticed that he had included in his Amendment the words "promissory notes." I thought I had convinced the hon. Member that the inclusion of these words is quite unnecessary, for I notice that, as his Amendment now stands on the paper, the words "promissory notes" are omitted. I have looked into the matter and taken the advice of the Inland Revenue, and I have been assured that these words are not only unnecessary, but that they would also be misleading. A promissory note is a loan raised for a period not exceeding twelve months, and consequently it is covered by these words.
§ *MR CALDWELLWhilst I still think that it would be better to follow the phraseology of the Stamp Act, 1891, and use both terms— "bills of exchange and promissory notes," yet, having regard to the explanation just given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and which will appear on the Records of the House, that promissory notes are included in the term "bills," I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original question again proposed.
§ SIR CHARLES CAMERON (Glasgow, Bridgeton)I think it is necessary to leave out the words "for a temporary purpose," because if money is temporarily applied to some permanent work the 733 borrowing body might be called upon to pay duty twice upon the same money. I do not think it is the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tax these loans twice, and I have put down a couple of Amendments intended to obviate this. In other respects the Amendment is fairly satisfactory.
§
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
In line 3, after the word 'raised' to leave out the words 'for a merely temporary purpose.'"—(Sir Charles Cameron.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ *SIR M. HICKS BEACHI believe that these words are necessary for the purpose of the clause, and if they were omitted it would be possible for a corporation to borrow for twelve months, and to continue that loan borrowing for an indefinite period of years and practically make it a permanent loan. I think the hon. Member will see that such a process would be very unfair.
§ SIR CHARLES CAMERONI should like to know what is meant by "a merely temporary purpose." My constituents hold that the words might be held not to apply when the temporary loan is applied to permanent work.
§ *SIR M. HICKS BEACHThat is not so.
| AYES. | ||
| Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) | Harwood, George | Richardson. J. (Durham, S. E.) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hedderwick, Thomas CharlesH | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Burns, John | Horniman, Frederick John | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Burt, Thomas | Humphreys-Owen. Arthur C. | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Caldwell, James | Jacoby, James Alfred | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumbland) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Spicer, Albert |
| Clough, Walter Owen | Leng, Sir John | Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. |
| Colville, John | MacAleese, Daniel | Strachey, Edward |
| Dalziel, James Henry | M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Davitt, Michael | M'Ghee, Richard | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Dillon, John | M'Kenna, Reginald | Weir, James Galloway |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Laren, Charles Benjamin | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) | Maddison, Fred | Williams, John Carvell (Notts |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) | Wilson, Henry J, (York, W. R.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Oldroyd, Mark | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) | Palmer, Geo. Wm. (Reading) | Wilson, JosH(Middlesbrough) |
| Fox, Dr. Joseph Francis | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. J. | Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Philipps, John Wynford | Sir Charles Cameron and Mr. Provand. |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
§ SIR CHARLES CAMERONThat being so I will not press this Amendment.
§ Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Words inserted.
§ SIR CHARLES CAMERONI do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have any objection to my next Amendment, which simply makes the meaning of the clause more clear.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 5, line 22, after tile word 'called' to insert the words: 'But provided that the duty under this section shall be paid by a local authority only once in respect of the exercise by them of borrowing powers, and shall not be paid in respect of money reborrowed by them to replace money borrowed which may have been paid off otherwise than by means of a statutory sinking fund.'"—(Sir Charles Cameron.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ SIR R. B. FINLAYI think the hon. Baronet will recognise what my right hon. friend said with regard to temporary loans. If these words are added they will introduce a totally new principle, which in practice would be most mischievous.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 69; Noes, 168. (Division list No. 182.)
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Fisher, William Hayes | Morton,ArthurH.A. (Deptford |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose- | Mount, William George |
| Arnold, Alfred | Flower, Ernest | Murray,RtHnAGraham(Bute |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Folkestone, Vicount | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | |
| Balcarres, Lord | Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Newdigate, Francis Alexander |
| Balfour, Rt.Hn.A.J.(Manch'r) | Garfit, William | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Balfour,RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds | Gibbons, J. Lloyd | Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Gibbs,Hn.A.G.H. (City of Lon) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Gibbs, Hon.Vicary(St.Albans) | Pease, Herbert P. (Darling'n) |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Giles, Charles Tyrell | Penn, John |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur |
| Beach,Rt.Hn.SirM.H.(Bristol) | Goldsworthy, Major- General | Pilkington,R. (Lanes, Newton) |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull | Gorst, Rt Hn G J (St George's) | Priestley,Sir W.Overend(Edin |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Bigwood, James | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Purvis, Robert |
| Billson, Alfred | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) | Rankin, Sir James |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hardy, Laurence | Ridley, Rt. Hon. SirMatt. W. |
| Carlile, William Walter | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Heath, James | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.) | Heaton, John Henniker | Robinson, Brooke |
| Cecil, Ld. Hugh (Greenwich) | Henderson, Alexander | Rothschild,Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Hoare, Edw. B. (Hampstead) | Round, James |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.(Birm.) | Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) | Russell, Gen. F. S. (Chelt'h'm) |
| Chamberlain,J.Austin(Wore'r | Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow) | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Houston, R. P. | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Charrington, Spencer | Howell, William Tudor | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Clarke, SirEdward(Plymouth) | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Stock, James Henry |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Kemp, George | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cook, Fred Lucas (Lambeth) | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William | Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'd Uni. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) | Kimber, Henry | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D | Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Cox, Irwin Edw. B. (Harrow) | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) | |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Loder, Gerald Walter E. | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Curzon, Viscount | Long,RtHnWalter(Liverpool) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lucas-Shadwell, William | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-L.) |
| Denny, Colonel | Macdona, John Cumming | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Williams, Jos. Powell- (Birm. |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Maclure, Sir John William | Wilson,J.W.(Worcestersh.N.) |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Wodehouse,Rt.Hn.E.R. (Bath |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs.) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. | M'Killop, James | Wylie, Alexander |
| Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V | Maxwell,, Rt Hn.SirHerbertE. | Wyndham, George |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. | Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Fellowes,Hon.AilwynEdward | Milward, Colonel Victor | Younger, William |
| Fergusson,Rt.Hn.Sirj.(M'nc'r | Monk, Charles James | |
| Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Finch, George H. | Morgan,Hn Fred. (Monm'thsh. | Sir William Walrond and |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Morrell, George Herbert | Mr. Anstruther. |
§ Another Amendment made.
§ Bill to be read the third time upon Tuesday next.