§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§
Question again proposed—
That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of a Salary, not exceeding £2,000, to the President of the Board of Education, and of salaries and remuneration to the secretaries, officers, and servants of the Board, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to
1464
provide for the establishment of a Board of Education for England and Wales."—(Sir J. Gorst)
§ DR. CLARKMy objection to this motion is that you have been constructing, or attempting to construct, a secondary education for Scotland; you have been transferring from one class of Estimates to another new powers to the Education Board in Scotland, and you have never given us a proper Opportunity of discussing them. From our share of the grant we have been spending £60,000 a year for a number of years under conditions that are not satisfactory to Scotch Members, and we have had no proper opportunity in Parliament of having the question considered. We have been having all these changes made in England, and yet time cannot be found to let us have a similar Bill for Scotland. I think as far as education is concerned we were in Scotland quite a century ahead of England, but we are getting terribly in arrear now. You are acting now contrary to the principle laid down years ago by a Unionist Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that was that the system of giving special grants should be discontinued. This principle has now been changed by the present Government.
* THE CHAIRMANI fail to see what the argument of the hon. Member has to do with the resolution now before the Committee, which is simply one to enable the members of the new board, if established, to have salaries.
§ DR. CLARKMy opposition is that such a proposal is more necessary for Scotland, and yet this Resolution relates to England only. In Scotland we are in this position, that you really have got not only the money granted by Parliament, but also the money granted from Scotland, and that money is not now being properly used. Therefore we require organisation in Scotland first.
* THE CHAIRMANThat might be an objection to the Bill itself which is now 1465 before a Standing Committee, but it is not an objection to this motion.
* THE CHAIRMANIf the hon. Member will look at the Order paper he will see that this Resolution is to enable the Standing Committee to consider this question. Until the House passes this the Standing Committee cannot consider the question of allotting salaries to the offices of the new Board.
§ DR. CLARKThen I desire to oppose that course being taken, and I have opposed this measure at every stage. Here you are proposing to give power to the Committee upstairs, and I do not want it to have that power. My opposition may look like a dog-in-the-manger policy, but what I wish to grumble about is the scandalous state of things in Scotland, and I desire to protest against the course taken by the Government. Of course, the predominant partner can always have its own way, but I think we have a right to appeal to the Government, because the action in Scotland by the Department is scarcely legal and very unconstitutional. I think that it is time that this matter was put in a proper constitutional and legal fashion. I do not want to hinder England from spending her own money on secondary education which will be valuable to this country, butt I am anxious that such education in Scotland should be properly organised, and I wish to protest against what the Government have done in this respect.
§ * MR. YOXALL (Nottingham, W.)I object to this Resolution from an entirely different point of view—namely, that I think the money may not be required. I gather that the whole scheme and intention of the Bill is that the President of the Board of Education shall be the Lord President of the Council. Therefore you propose to authorise a payment which in the case I anticipate and apprehend will not be necessary, and accordingly this motion is superfluous. If the Vice-President of the Council, speaking on behalf of the Government, will now assure me that in his opinion this payment will be required for the President of the Board of Education, who will not be the Lord President of the Council and who will not 1466 sit in the other House of Parliament, and that it is the intention of the Government that the first President of this Board shall be a person other than the Lord President and shall be a Member of this House, I will not oppose the grant. But I must take exception to it so long as we have not a Government statement in this Committee. The first appointment will strike the key-note for all future appointments, and the Government should be pledged to secure that the first President of this Board shall be a Member of this House and shall not be the Lord President of the Council. It is most important that the Minister responsible for the education of the country should be a Member of this House. The Education Estimates are discussed here, and the administration of the Minister is called into question here.
* THE CHAIRMANThat surely is a matter for discussion in Committee on the Bill, where it would be perfectly open to the hon. Member to move that the President of the Board of Education shall be a Member of this House. It cannot be decided on this Resolution but in Committee on the Bill.
§ * MR. YOXALLI have asked for an assurance, and unless it is given I think it will be my duty to oppose this grant.
§ THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir J. GORST,) Cambridge UniversityI can give the hon. Member this assurance: that if the Committee does not pass this Resolution it will be impossible for the President of the Board of Education to be a Member of this House. There will be no power whatever to give a salary to the President of the Board of Education at all unless the Committee passes this Resolution, and therefore if the hon. Member desires to have the President of the Board of Education a Member of this House he had better agree to the Resolution.
§ * MR. YOXALLI am led to the conclusion that we shall not, by passing this motion, secure that the President of the Board of Education shall be a Member of this House. The right hon. Gentleman has given no answer to the important point which has been raised. I will therefore move to insert in the motion the following words: "Unless he holds 1467 another salaried office." Am I in order, Sir, in moving that?
* THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member will be perfectly in order to do that in Committee on the Bill, but we are not in Committee on the Bill.
§ MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)The intention of the Government apparently is that the salary of the President of the Board of Education should be £2,000. We had a discussion earlier in this session as to the desirability of raising the salary attached to another office. I take it, however, that this Resolution is not intended to govern the future action of the Government or to express any permanent view on the subject of salary. I think it is deserving of consideration whether the office of President of the Board of Education will not become so important that a larger salary than £2,000 should be attached to it. I merely mention the matter now in order that we may not be supposed to assent to the view that the salary mentioned in the Resolution is sufficient for the President of the Board of Education, who will have his work very much increased by the Bill to which this Resolution refers, and who will become one of the most important Ministers of the State. I hope it will be borne in mind that we are not assenting to the salary being fixed at £2,000.
§ * MR. YOXALLI beg to move "in line 3, after the word 'Education,' to insert the following words, 'provided he is a Member of this House.'"
* THE CHAIRMANThat Amendment will not be in order. The proper time to raise the question will be when the operative part of the Bill is reached. This Resolution must be adopted before any Amendment of the Bill in this matter can be considered.
§ * MR. YOXALLIs it impossible then to apply a condition to a grant of money from this House?
* THE CHAIRMANCertainly not. The hon. Member can attach whatever conditions he likes to the clause in the Bill, but this is not a clause in the Bill. It is only a Resolution enabling the Committee to consider the 1468 Bill, and when the clauses of the Bill are reached it will be open to the hon. Member to attach whatever condition he pleases.
§ * MR. YOXALLThen I beg to move that the amount be reduced from £2,000 to £1,000. I do so because we have not received any assurance from the Vice-President or from any Member of the Government regarding the important point which has been raised.
§
Amendment proposed—
To leave out '£2,000' and insert '£1,000."—(Mr Yoxall.)
§ Question proposed, "that '£2,000' stand part of the Question."
§ SIR JOHN GORSTI hope the hon. Member will not persist in his Amendment. He asked for an assurance which it is quite impossible to give. No Member of the Government—not even the Leader of the House—could give an assurance as to what it might please Her Majesty to do when this Bill comes into operation. The Bill will not come into operation until the 1st of April next, and how could even the Prime Minister pledge Her Majesty now as to what she would then do, when she might have wholly different advisers to those she has at present? The hon. Member will therefore see that it would be a most improper pledge to give.
§ MR. BRYCEI think it is to be regretted that no member of the Government is present to express what I believe to be the view of the Government that the Minister of Education should hold a seat in the House of Commons. Clearly it would be to the interests of the public service that he should sit in this House.
* THE CHAIRMANOrder, order That is not the question before the Committee. The question before the Committee is whether the President of the Board of Education should receive a salary of £1,000 or £2,000.
§ MR. BRYCEThen I would suggest to my hon. friend not to pursue his objection now. I think it would be better for him to reserve the point he desires to make, and in which he will find sympathy in the House generally, 1469 until the Bill comes before the Standing Committee, when he can demand the assurance he desires and which I hope he will receive.
§ * MR. YOXALLThe Amendment entirely opposed to my desire in the matter, but I have moved it in order to obtain an assurance from the Government on a point to which I attach so much importance, and I must persist in it.
§ MR. CALDWELLI think the action taken by my hon. friend is perfectly reasonable. We do not know whether the President is to be in this House or in the other House, and we ought to know the class of man who is to be appointed before we proceed to fix his salary. If a Member of this House is to be appointed, the House will probably consider that £2,000 will not be an unreasonable sum to give him, because there will be a feeling of satisfaction that the House will be receiving value. But if he is not a Member of
§ this House, then we shall not be receiving the benefit of his services, to which we would otherwise be entitled. In view of the uncertainty of the matter, and as a protest against the want of information under which we are labouring, it is quite reasonable to move that the sum should not exceed £1,000.
§ DR. CLARKMy hon. friend is in this position. Some of the questions he desires to raise cannot be raised until the Bill comes back from the Standing Committee, and he may find it impossible to have them considered on the Report stage. My hon. friend is now raising this question in perhaps the only form he can constitutionally do so. The only other way is to have the Bill re-committed.
§ Question put, "That £2,000 stand part of the motion."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 127; Noes, 50. (Division List, No. 219.)
1471| AYES. | ||
| Arrol, Sir William | Doxford, William Theodore | M'Killop, James |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward | Malcolm, Ian |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Man.) | Fisher, William Hayes | Monckton, Edward Philip |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Morton, Arthur H.A.(Deptford |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Mount, William George |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H.-Bristol | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) |
| Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
| Bethell, Commander | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Biddulph, Michael | Gretton, John | Pease, Herbt, Pike (Darlington |
| Bigwood, James | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur |
| Blakiston-Houston, John | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. | Pilkington, R (Lancs.Newton) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hill, Arthur (Down, West) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith. | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Brassey, Albert | Howell, William Tudor | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Howorth, Sir Henry Hoyle | Purvis, Robert |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.) | Pym, C. Guy |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Jebb, Richard Claverhouse | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm, | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool) |
| Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Jenkins, Sir John Jones | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Cochrane, Hn. T. H. A. E. | Jolliffe, Hon. H. George | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Kemp, George | Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Kenyon, James | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Keswick, William | Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) |
| Colomb, Sir J. C. Ready | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire) |
| Colston, C. E. H. Athole | Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn | Stanley, Lord (Lancashire) |
| Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. |
| Cruddas, William Donaldson | Long,Rt.Hn.Walter (Liverp'l) | Stock, James Henry |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Lopes, Henry Yard Buller | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Curzon, Viscount | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray |
| Denny, Colonel | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Triton, Charles Ernest |
| Doughty, George | Macdona, John Cumming | Usborne, Thomas |
| Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Maclure, Sir John William | Valentia, Viscount |
| Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard | Wilson, John (Falkirk) | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath) | |
| Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Williams, J. Powell-(Birmg.) | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Willox, Sir John Archibald | Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Billson, Alfred | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Oldroyd, Mark |
| Burns, John | Gourley, Sir E. Temperley | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Burt, Thomas | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Caldwell, James | Hogan, James Francis | Price, Robert John |
| Cameron, Sir Charles (Glasgow) | Horniman, Frederick John | Randell, David |
| Carvill, Patrick G. Hamilton | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Clough, Walter Owen | Joicey, Sir James | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Colville, John | Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal) | Kilbride, Denis | Souttar, Robinson |
| Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Steadman, William Charles |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Leng, Sir John | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Dewar, Arthur | Lewis, John Herbert | Weir, James Galloway |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Macaleese, Daniel | Williams, J. Carvell (Notts) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | MacDonell, Dr. M. (Queen's C.) | Wilson John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Doogan, P. C. | ||
| Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) | M'Ewan, William | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Yoxall and Dr. Clark. |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Moss, Samuel |
Bill read the third time, and passed.
§ Resolved, that it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of a Salary, not exceeding £2,000, to the President of the Board of Education, and of Salaries and Remuneration to the Secretaries, Officers, and Servants of the Board, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to provide for the establishment of a Board of Education for England and Wales.
§ Resolution to be reported To-morrow.