§
Amendment again proposed—
In page 3, line 13, to leave out the words 'in section 91, and"—(Mr. Caldwell.)
§ MR. CALDWELLUnder the law at present existing the Secretary of State may, by a warrant under his hand, send a discharged lunatic soldier to an asylum at the expense of the parish or union to which it is shown, by available information, that he is chargeable. It is proposed in this Bill that this responsibility should be delegated to an officer, who, by the Army Act, 1881, may be not merely the Commanding Officer, but any officer, whether on the retired list or not. The power of discharging a lunatic soldier to an asylum, and fixing the parish or union to which he shall be chargeable, is a very great power, and one that should be retained by the Secretary of State. Not only docs the parish or union become responsible for the maintenance of the soldier, but also of the wife and children. Therefore the exercise of this power has very serious consequences. I do not object to the delegation to an officer of a matter of military discipline, but this is a civil matter, in which questions of domicile and jurisdiction may arise of which he would have no experience. Responsibility in the matter should be with the Secretary of State.
§ * THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. J. POWELL WILLIAMS, Birmingham, S.)I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment moved by the honourable Member. This is, after all, a pure, and I should have thought a rather simple, matter of decentralisation. The Committee is aware that a Departmental Committee sat to suggest in what way duties hitherto performed by the War Office could be delegated to commanding officers of districts, and the duties referred to were 1241 duties which, in the opinion of the Committee, might be so delegated. In the case or the lunacy of a soldier a Report is sent to the Secretary of State, and that Report is examined at the War Office by a War Office clerk, and all he can do is to determine whether there is sufficient justification for declaring the man to be a lunatic. Upon that an older is made under the hand of the Permanent Under Secretary for the removal of the man to his place of settlement. When an ordinary magistrate has to certify to the lunacy of each person he has to see the person; but the Secretary of State or the Permanent Under Secretary has no opportunity whatever of seeing a particular lunatic soldier. But the commanding officer of the district has that opportunity, and, therefore, it was thought that that officer was the proper person to be satisfied that the order made was a proper one. Under these circumstances I hope the Committee will reject the Amendment.
§ MR. CALDWELLThere is nothing in the Bill to make it compulsory on the commanding officer to see the man.
§ * THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICEIt is not reasonable to suppose that the Secretary of State would delegate this power to a junior officer and not to the officer commanding the district.
§ MR. CALDWELLThe point is, that under this clause the power of determining the particular parish to which a lunatic soldier should be sent may be delegated to any officer. The only person who can obtain the necessary information to settle the question of domicile is the Secretary of State, and as, in my opinion, this power should be retained by the Secretary of State, I move nay Amendment.
§
Question put—
That the words' in section 91 and' stand part of the clause.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 116; Noes 35.—(Division List No. 78.)
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, W. (Newc. under Lyme) | Macaleese, Daniel | Steadman, William Charles |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | M'Arthur, W. (Cornwall) | Sullivan, D. (Westmeath) |
| Burns, John | M'Ghee, Richard | Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Maddison, Fred. | Warner, T. Courtenay T. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonp't) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Clough, Walter Owen | Moss, Samuel | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Colville, John | Oldroyd, Mark | Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles | Pease, A. E. (Cleveland) | Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| Hayne, Rt. Hn. C. Seale- | Provand, A. Dryburgh | |
| Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire) | Reckitt, Harold James | TELLERS FOR THE NOESߞMr. Caldwell and Captain Sinclair. |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land) | Rickett, J. Compton | |
| Leng, Sir John | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
§
Amendment proposed—
Page 3, line 17, leave out any officer deputed by him; and insert the general officer commanding the district in which such soldier is, or was last, serving who may be deputed by the Secretary of State."—(Mr. Caldwell.)
§ MR. CALDWELLIn the Memorandum it is stated that the object of the Amendment of the Army Act contained in clause 4 is to enable the Secretary of State to depute to general officers commanding districts the powers of the Secretary of State in this matter. That may be the intention, but the wording of the clause is not to that effect, and I move my Amendment in order to make the wording of the clause agree with the Memorandum.
§ * THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICEI am unable to accept the Amendment. As a matter of fact, it can only be the general officer commanding the district who will exercise these functions, as it is perfectly impossible, in the presence of the general officer, for the Secretary of State to depute these powers to a junior officer. If the words proposed by the honourable Member were inserted, may I ask him what would happen in the event of the general officer commanding the district being absent?
§ MR. CALDWELLThe Secretary of State for War would remain in the future in exactly the same position as in the past.
§ * THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICEGeneral officers commanding are frequently absent from their districts on inspection, and in their absence this function would have to be discharged, as now, by the Secretary of State. I hope the Committee will agree that it is desirable to leave the words in the form proposed by the Government.
§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)The well-known in- 1244 genuity of my right honourable Friend the Member for Lanark has discovered a point of some importance, because this question 'has two aspects or two branches. There is, first of all, the question of who is a lunatic and who is not. That, Sir, in all cases would be a very delicate question to raise even within the limits of this House; but there is the other question, which is one of great importance, as to the domicile of the lunatic, and upon which union the charge for his maintenance is to be placed. That is a matter which, although it may be a very small one for the House of Commons, still is of very great moment to the local authorities who have to pay the charge thus thrown upon them. My honourable Friend has failed in his first Amendment, but he now says that if the power is to be delegated to a local officer it should be delegated to the principal local officer, and I confess that there is a great deal of force in that contention. To delegate this power to any officer is rather a serious concession to make, whereas if the power is vested in the general officer commanding the district there is no force whatever in the remarks of the Financial Secretary to the War Office as to what would take place in the absence of the general commanding the district. In the absence of the general officer there is someone put in his place who discharges his functions with full responsibility. If not, the power reverts to the Secretary of State, but I do think it is a very strong order that a question like this, involving a money payment on the part of local authorities, should be delegated to any officer.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNERIf the commanding officer of the district was away inspecting he would not be far away, as he would be inspecting in his own district, if at all. It would be on very rare oc- 1245 casions that he would be out of his district. We have never doubted that the Financial Secretary has honourable intentions, but we support the insertion of the words in the Amendment because we do not wish these powers given to young officers incompetent to deal with this question. In my opinion this is a most reasonable Amendment, and I cannot understand why it is not accepted.
§ COLONEL WELBY (Taunton)May I suggest that instead of the words
| AYES. | ||
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'r.) | Gedge, Sydney | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Phillpotts, Captain Arthu |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's | Pilkington, Richard |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Broderick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Purvis, Robert |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Heath, James | Rankin, Sir James |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hill, Sir Edward Stock(Bristol) | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Houston, R. P. | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Howell, William Tudor | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor.) | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Robinson, Brooke |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham |
| Charrington, Spencer | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Russell, T W. (Tyrone) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Jolliffe, Hon. H. George | Rutherford, John |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Kenyon Slaney, Col. William | Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Keswick, William | Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) |
| Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) | Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Cross, Alexander((Glasgow) | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Curzon, Viscount | Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset | Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Valentia, Viscount |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverp') | Webster, Sir R. E. (Isle of Wight) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. Akers- | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E. |
| Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm, |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Finch, George H. | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Milward, Colonel Victor | |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Monckton, Edward Philip | TELLERS FOR THE AYESߞSir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Fison, Frederick William | More, Rbt. Jasper(Shropshire) | |
| Flower, Ernest | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'd) | |
| Folkestone, Viscount | Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute |
| NOES | ||
| Allen, W. (Newc.-under Lyme) | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | M 'Ghee, Richard | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Burns, John | Maddison, Fred | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Morton, Edw. J.C. (Devonport | Weir, James Galloway |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Moss, Samuel | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Clough, Walter Owen | Oldroyd, Mark | Williams, John Carvell (Notts) |
| Colville, John | Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| Hayne, Rt, Hon. Charles Seale- | Provand, Andrew Dryburgh | |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Reckitt, Harold James | TELLERS FOR THE NOESߞMr. Caldwell and Mr. Warner. |
| Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | |
| Leng, Sir John | Sinclair, Capt, John (Forfarshire) | |
| Macaleese Daniel | Steadman, William Charles |
§ "general officer" it should read "the officer commanding the district"?
§ MR. CALDWELLI am quite prepared to move an Amendment deleting the word "general," and leaving it officer commanding the district."
§
Question put—
That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause.
§ Committee divided:—Ayes 112; Noes 34.—(Division List No. 79.)
1247
§
Question proposed—
That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill.
CAPTAIN SINCLAIRI would call the attention of the Committee to the wording of the clause, which says—
Or any officer deputed by the Secretary of State for the purpose.These words are unnecessarily wide to obtain the purpose set forth in the Memorandum of the Bill, which is said to be to enable the Secretary of State
| AYES. | ||
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | Murray, C. J. (Coventry) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'r) | Gedge, Sydney | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Godson, Sir A. F. | Orr-Ewing, Chas. Lindsay |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Goschen Rt Hn G J (St George's) | Phillpotts, Captain A. |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Goschen, G. J. (Sussex) | Pilkington, Richard |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Heath, James | Purvis, Robert |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Hill, Sir F. Stock (Bristol) | Rankin, Sir James |
| Cecil, Lord H. (Greenwich) | Houston, R. P. | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Howell, William Tudor | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Bir'm) | Jeffreys, A. F. | Robertson, H. (Hackney) |
| Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Robinson, Brooke |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon Henry | Johnstone, H. (Sussex) | Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham |
| Charrington, Spencer | Jolliffe, Hon H. George | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Cochrane, Hn. T. H. A. E. | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. | Rutherford, John |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Keswick, William | Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Lawrence Sir E Durning (Corn) | Smith, A. H. (Christchurch) |
| Cook, F. Lucas (Lambeth) | Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) | Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand) |
| Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) | Lawson, J. G. (Yorks.) | Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Leigh-Bennett, H. Currie | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. |
| Cross, A. (Glasgow) | Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset) | Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley |
| Curzon, Viscount | Loder, G. W. E. | Tomlinson, W. E. Murray |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) | Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) |
| Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of Wight) | ||
| Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Duncombe, Hon. H. V. | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.) |
| Fellowes, Hn. A. Edward | M'Arthur, C. (Liverpool) | Willox, Sir J. Archibald |
| Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E. | Wyvill, Marmaduke D 'Arcy |
| Finch, George H. | M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.) | Young, Com. (Berks.) |
| Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne | Milward, Colonel Victor | |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Monckton, Edward Philip | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Fison, Frederick William | More, R. J. (Shropshire) | |
| Flower, Ernest | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | |
| Folkestone, Viscount | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, W. (Newc.-under-Lyme) | M'Ghee, Richard | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Maddison, Fred. | Warner, T. Courtenay T. |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport; | Weir, James Galloway |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Moss, Samuel | Whittaker, T. Palmer |
| Clough, Walter Owen | Oldroyd, Mark | Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pease, A. E. (Cleveland) | Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.) |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Provand, A. Dryburgh | |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land) | Reckitt, Harold James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Captain Sinclair and Mr. Caldwell. |
| Leng, Sir John | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | |
| Macaleese, Daniel | Steadman, Wm. Charles | |
| M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) | Sullivan, D. (Westmeath) |