HC Deb 12 April 1899 vol 69 cc876-908

Order for the Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed— That the Bill be now read a second time.

MR. PYM (Bedford)

Mr. Speaker, it is with a great sense of responsibility that I rise to move the Second Reading of this Bill. Knowing what large interest is taken in it by the great mass of members of the various-fire brigades throughout the country dis- tricts, and the public also, I could have wished that the task had been entrusted to abler hands than mine, to one with longer experience and greater authority in the House; but I have been long enough in this House to realise the kind indulgence which the House extends to Members under like circumstances, and that gives me confidence to carry out the somewhat difficult task that has been imposed upon me. Now, Sir, the object and general purpose of this Bill is to ensure that all fire brigades throughout the country districts included in it shall be efficient, that we may rely with the same confidence upon the fire brigades in the country as we do on that magnificent service, the Metropolitan Fire Brigade, which looks after London. That is the object we aim at, and that is the intention of this Bill. To achieve this result we do not ask for any new powers to be conferred upon local authorities, for all the necessary powers exist at the present moment in Acts of Parliament which cover the whole ground. What we aim at is the efficiency of the fire brigades by their being supplied with proper appurtenances, and also by there being a full brigade. Neither do we seek for special funds from the Imperial Exchequer. But we do ask that the small expense entailed for the payment of the inspectors under the Bill should be defrayed out of the fund which is called the ex-contribution, and which is paid into the different county funds at the disposal of the respective counties. And, again, where pressure has to be brought to bear on local authorities to enforce the application of the Acts above referred to, we ask that the central authority, the Local Government Board, should exercise that pressure instead of leaving it to the county council, thus avoiding as much as possible raising any feeling of irritation on the part of the various local authorities. Now, we require that every fire brigade throughout the country shall be registered at the Local Government Board, so that that Department will have at its disposal complete information with regard to the fire brigades throughout the kingdom which at present it does not possess, and which must become very valuable. The whole question of fire brigades in this country is quite a novel one in this House. I do not think the present subject has ever been raised before in its present form in the House of Commons, and that being the case I have found it very difficult to get the information that I require to be able to present to the House. Supposing this register had been in existence we should have had very little difficulty in explaining to this House the actual condition of the fire brigades in this country. The President of the Local Government Board has been kind enough to grant in a return of the paid and unpaid brigades, and no doubt I shall have it in course of time. I beg to make my acknowledgements to the right honourable Gentleman for helping me so far. It is very valuable information for bringing this matter forward, but I have other sources of information not quite so good, nor carrying so much authority, which I will give the House so as to give more or less the general idea of this Bill. There is no intention under this Bill of enforcing brigades upon localities where they do not at present exist and are not required. I know that there is an idea in some quarters that it is our intention to force local authorities throughout the country to have fire brigades, but it is not so. Our intention is to bring about efficiency in those brigades which already exist at the present time, and not to add to them unless they are prepared to do so of their own accord. Then, Sir, by proposing that inspectors should be appointed by the Government, we ensure that they will be men whose authority will be respected, and whose knowledge of the work they undertake will be undoubted; and it would be impossible for the county councils to elect a similar class of men who would give equal satisfaction to the public. The keystone of the Bill is the annual inspection of fire brigades, by a competent authority responsible directly to the Local Government Board, which is calculated to exercise a wholesome effect upon the administration of many brigades, and it will also tend to allay any misgivings in the public mind as to the efficiency of the corps that undertakes the protection of life and property from fire in any area. By granting certificates to efficient brigades a healthy stimulus will be promoted between brigades, and a sort of healthy competition will be brought into play. There is another reason for a stimulus, and that is, although it is not generally known, perhaps, to honourable Members of this House, although it is very well known by the fire authorities, that there have been for a number of years a number of what are called bogus brigades which have no machinery or plant, but a uniform with which they go about the country and collect subscriptions. Now, if every brigade had its certificate, and the person called upon for a collection asked to see it, he would be secured, and a blow would be dealt at bogus brigades, and something done for the proposed protection of the fire brigade. I shall be prepared to show, later, to what extent that fraud has been committed. Before I go further I think I ought to face the real question with regard to bringing this Bill forward, and that is, whether there is a demand for the Bill. Is the protection from fire afforded by the existing system so efficient that there is no necessity for such action as is proposed by the Bill? I may mention that we had a great deal of difficulty in getting these matters together with regard to the necessity of the Bill, but I would like to use an argument which should appeal to honourable Members of the House and bring it home to them. I would appeal first to the experience of honourable Members of this House, and judging from that experience I would ask if they would get up and say with absolute sincerity that they are satisfied in their constituencies that they are properly and efficiently protected. I found the necessity for my Bill upon the responses given to that question by honourable Members. Secondly, I would draw attention to the accounts which have appeared in the daily papers of the past three years of disastrous fires which have taken place in all parts of the country, and the examples which they have shown of the want of adequate provision made for protection from fire. The House may remember the great fires at Sunderland and Newcastle-on-Tyne and Norwich, and many other places which I might call attention to, which have taken place during the last three years, and if honourable' Members read the accounts of those fires they will see, where the matter has been gone into by the public interested in those places, that these fires would not in all probability have been so disastrous but for the deficiency in appurtenances and equipment of the brigades which had to deal with them. That alone, I think, is sufficient to authorise us who are interested in this Bill in bringing this matter forward—not for the, benefit of the fire brigade men, but, in the interests of public safety. It may be desirable, before proceeding further, that I should state as shortly as possible, to the House the present condition of the fire brigades in England and Wales and their status. Until a period well on in the present century the business of protecting life and property in the towns and villages of this country was loft entirely to voluntary effort, and to a great extent was performed by the insurance companies, who equipped and maintained, at their own expense, fire brigades in many of the large towns. The fire service in England and Wales may, broadly speaking, be said to fall under one or other of the following heads: Brigades constituted and regulated by special or local Acts of Parliament, included in Bills relating to the government of the municipalities, like our own Metropolitan, Fire Brigade of London and those of Manchester, Liverpool, and a few other places. Those brigades we have nothing to do with in this Bill. They are governed by their own laws and Acts, and I think you may take it for granted that where a large town like Manchester has to pay a large sum for the maintenance of its fire brigade the people of the town will take care that it is kept up to the mark. There is no need for us to interfere there. I need hardly call attention to the magnificent brigade of the City of London. Why is it that the City of London can maintain and equip such a magnificent force as the Metropolitan Fire Brigade? Because they have that which we do not possess in the country districts, what we all desire to see, and what we shall have through the operation of this Bill, plenty of money to thoroughly equip themselves. The Metropolitan Fire Brigade have a gift from the Government of £10,000, and they have £30 for every £1,000,000 worth which is insured which is saved, and if that is not enough they fall back upon the rates. In Manchester they have the rates to fall back upon again, with the result that they can get adequate service. The next class is properly organised and equipped brigades, wholly maintained by local authorities, which take full advantage of powers contained in general Acts of Parliament, which apparently give them also full power over the rates, with the result again that they can go to the rates and make full use of them to make their brigades effective. The next class is brigades partly equipped or subsidised by local authorities in the exercise of powers contained in general Acts of Parliament, but partly dependent for their equipment or maintenance on voluntary subscriptions. The poorest class of all is composed of those brigades dependent entirely, both for equipment and maintenance, on voluntary subscriptions. Besides those we have a few private brigades organised by and at the expense of wealthy men, business firms, railway and other companies, or other public bodies, for the protection of their own property. A few brigades in various parts of the country are still in the employ of insurance companies—a survival from the time when such employment was more common. The Bill does not touch either the Metropolitan Fire Brigade or brigades under special local Acts, such as those of Manchester, Salford, and Liverpool, or brigades in county boroughs, or Scotland or Ireland. The brigades which come under the Bill arc, generally speaking, those in provincial towns, and in the more important villages throughout the country districts which cannot combine under the Parish Fire Engines Act of last Session for self-protection, which constitute the great majority of the brigades. Of these some are maintained and equipped partly or wholly by the local authorities; the rest are voluntary brigades. Private brigades can come into it, if they think proper, under clause 8. It is for the purpose of ensuring the efficiency of these two latter classes of brigades that the Bill is introduced, and I may say here that the Bill has the unanimous support of the National Fire Brigades' Union. I dare say many honourable Members have never heard of the Fire Brigades' Union. I never heard of it myself until within the last six months, and if the House will permit I will give a few particulars of it. The object of forming the union was to promote efficiency of the fire service, and to provide a central organisation for fire brigades, to ensure uniformity of drill and to encourage the establishment of brigades in districts not at present protected. It is fortunate, in the interests of this Bill, such an organisation exists, for, of the 420 brigades which belong to the union, records are kept of everything relating to their equipment and condition, and their supporting such a Bill as this gives us very strong ground for advocating such a Measure. Now, Sir, that is the general position of the fire service throughout England and Wales. Generally speaking, it might be described as efficient for the purpose of protection against fire. Because you have three systems: first, that which is based upon expenditure being charged upon the public rates; secondly, that which depends half upon public expenditure and half upon private effort; thirdly, that which is purely voluntary. In some places like London, Liverpool, Manchester, and other largo provincial towns you have, again, brigades under proper supervision and control and paid for out of the public rates. In other places you have a mixed system, depending partly upon the local rates and partly upon private subscriptions. And in other places still you have a purely voluntary organisation in some of our towns only, partly efficient in others, and some of our country districts, but as regards the rest of the country leaving much to be desired, not through any fault of officers or men, but simply for want of being supplied with proper equipment, and they can only be made efficient by money being provided out of the rates for that purpose. The reason why these brigades are in such an ineffective condition is because there is not one system throughout the country. Fire protection is a public duty, and not a duty to be put upon the shoulders of private individuals and left to voluntary agents and private munificence, and there should be one system adopted throughout the country, and it is because of that that we have come here and asked for the change. I am perfectly certain of this, that where we have experience of large towns where they have taken the matter in hand they look upon it as a public duty which they have to perform, and consider that they have a right to demand public money to carry it out satisfactorily. Now, Sir, there is no excuse for this state of things, because Acts of Parliament have been in existence for a great number of years, extending as far back as 1833, to enable local authorities to fully equip and maintain fire brigades by a charge upon the rates. Now, what are these Acts? By section 44 of the Lighting and Watching Act, 1833, and section 29 of the Poor Law Amendment Act, 1867, power was given to provide and maintain a fire engine and other appliances and accoutrements and a fire-engine house, and to maintain a fire brigade, and to pay the expense out of the rates. In addition to the powers contained in the above Acts the Town Police Clauses Act, 1847, section 32, gives power to the local authority to purchase, keep, or hire horses for drawing engines. I will not take up the time of the House by reading the clauses of each of these Acts, but, generally speaking, by the sections referred to, which differ somewhat in detail, powers are given to provide and maintain fire brigade engines and appliances, engine houses, and to charge the expenses upon the rates. By section 33 of the Town Police Clauses Act power was given to send the engines and firemen outside the limits of the districts to extinguish fires and to charge the owner with the expense thereof. Then, under the Public Health Act, 1875, clause 66, which is a compulsory clause, the local authorities must make proper provision for an adequate supply of water in case of fire and for the setting up of fire plugs, and the Parish Fire Engines Act, 1898, introduced by the honourable Member for Norwich last Session, which will be an exceedingly valuable Act in connection with the present Bill, provides in effect that a parish council which has a fire engine and appliances may combine with other local authorities for the purpose of jointly protecting themselves, each paying its proportionate share of the expense out of the rates. It will be observed that all these enactments but the one as to providing and maintaining fire plugs are permissive only, not compulsory; they give a power, but do not impose a duty. Now, Sir, here are the powers ready to hand, full and complete, to provide every appurtenance required to make an efficient fire service. All that is necessary, and what we come to this House to ask for, is that these powers shall be made compulsory through the action of the Local Government Board. These Acts at the present time are only partially operative; they are not exercised to the full extent of the powers they confer, and until they are made compulsory where required we shall not have reliable fire protection. Considering the magnitude of the interests involved, it is surprising that so important a matter should have been left in such an unsatisfactory position as exists at the present time: There is no inspection as to efficiency, no proper control, although in many cases public money is expended, though inadequately, with the result that this haphazard condition of things—for it cannot be called a system—is highly detrimental both to the interests of the localities and to the brigades themselves. In some large towns, it is true, the local authorities in whom the above powers of establishing and maintaining fire brigades have by subsequent legislation become vested have adopted and are now exercising such powers in their entirety, with excellent results; and it is found that the addition to the rates consequent upon such exercise is moderate in amount, and really trifling in comparison with the security against loss of life and property by fire which is thereby obtained. In many places the local authorities, exercising in part only the powers conferred upon them, have provided more or less adequate appliances, but too often with a grudging hand, and have left to the energy and public spirit of some individual the task of organising a brigade, and to the generosity of a few well-disposed people the expense of maintaining it. Cases are not uncommon where local authorities maintain brigades but neglect to provide them with engines or other appliances, or where manual engines are supplied instead of steamers. A fire occurred quite recently at a country house within a moderate distance of a town containing about 20,000 inhabitants and several large factories. On the brigade being summoned it arrived without an engine and with fire hose only, and had it not been that there was a stand-pipe in front of the residence the fire brigade would have been useless. The most numerous class of cases is where the local authorities have neglected or refused altogether to make use of the powers conferred upon them, and where whole districts are entirely dependent upon the voluntary efforts of private individuals and upon voluntary subscriptions. Such subscriptions are precarious, often grudgingly given, and as a rule quite inadequate. The voluntary brigades consist for the most part of artisans and labourers, who willingly and gratuitously devote much of their spare time to rendering themselves competent in the details of fire brigade work, but whose circumstances do not permit them to provide themselves with uniforms at their own expense, and it is unfair to ask then to sacrifice their wages if summoned during working hours to attend a fire. The men naturally become disheartened by the lack of proper appliances, and the lukewarm support of the public in response to their appeals for subscriptions, and also the uncertainty as to receiving any remuneration whatever for their services. For, Sir, it is a matter of common occurrence for an owner of property, in case of fire, after having summoned the brigade, afterwards to refuse payment of any remuneration whatever for their services or even their expense out of pocket for the hire of horses, etc., on the ground that the brigade holding itself out as a "volunteer" brigade has no right to charge. That is a thing which is constantly occurring all over the country, and cases have been brought to the court and so decided by the magistrates in spite of the facts that the man whose house is on fire sent for the brigade and then refused to pay upon that ground. The want of an efficient system of inspection is felt, perhaps, even more as regards appliances than as regards the drill of the men. Local authorities too often rely upon water pipes and hydrants and upon the pressure as being at all times and for all purposes sufficient, and neglect to provide a fire engine as a second or auxiliary line of defence. I was staying a few weeks ago down in the country, and I happened to see a letter written to the gentleman with whom I was staying by the captain of the fire brigade of the district, asking him if he would still continue his subscriptions to the fire brigade, because the local authorities, having put up hydrants in the village in conspicuous positions, considered there was no use for a fire brigade. I might tell you, at the same time, that this fire brigade was particularly efficient, and fully equipped in every way. The fire brigade, engine, hose, and everything connected with it was offered to the local authority as a free gift, and the local authority declined to have it. That is a condition of things in several villages where they are putting up these hydrants. That is all the protection they have. They do' not care anything about the country houses around. But what we maintain is, that hydrants are not sufficient. That the Ilfracombe fire was so disastrous was in consequence of their relying upon a system of hydrants and not possessing a steam fire engine. I can give you many other cases where this system has totally failed in consequence of the failure of the water supply upon which they relied for protection. There are all sorts of ways in which the hydrant system may get out of order. However excellent the system of water supply, circumstances may arise when, through necessary repairs, frost, or lack of pressure, the water in the pipes may not be available, and for want of an engine great loss of property ensues, as has been proved over and over again. It would be easy to give a number of instances of great loss by fire, not only of property, but of precious lives, which are constantly appearing in the papers; but I do not wish, by mentioning names, to be invidious, as such events are matters of common knowledge, and I am happy to say that in some of the most disastrous cases the evil has worked its own cure. Now, one difficulty that I have had in this matter was in getting sound information so as to get at the actual condition of these things. I have mentioned the National Fire Brigades' Union, which, as I have said is composed of 420 fire brigades throughout the country, and I have been able to get some information with regard to some of them. The honorary secretary of the National Fire Brigades' Union has been kind enough to send out a, circular to every fire brigade asking them to give certain information, to which 387 brigades have replied. At the present moment I propose to give a few particulars of those 387 brigades, representing 7,000 firemen in various parts of the country. Of these 13 were paid, 241 part paid, 94 volunteer, and 39 doubtful. Out of the 387 brigades 151 have no fire escapes, and are in urgent need of the same; many others have escapes, but they are not fit for use; 325 brigades require more hose, and the hose of many other brigades is very defective; 234 do not possess steam fire engines, and use the old-fashioned manual, which is quite out of place. In one place the engine is 100 years old, and the urban district council makes a grant of £5 a year to maintain the brigade and to pay the rent of the engine-house. In another place the date of the engine is 1768, the brigade is also without a fire escape, and the urban district council allow a grant of £10 to maintain the brigade. Of the 241 part-paid brigades the engines and appliances belong to the urban district council, to whom they have been handed over in a large number of cases by the brigades free of cost, and in return the councils make a small grant per man to retain their services and to keep the appliances clean and ready for fires. In other cases they make a small grant to the brigade, which is not sufficient to pay for oil, waste, and repairs. Most of the part-paid brigades have to appeal to the public for subscriptions. In other cases, which are very numerous, the deficiency is made up by the chief officer of the brigade, which amounts, as a rule, to £50 and upwards a year, and it is a very common thing for captains of fire brigades to have to pay as much as £100 a year. Others, again, apply to the insurance offices, who supplement their needs by a grant or by expenses for attending fires. The grant supplied by the urban district council to these part-paid brigades is very often so absurdly small that it is not sufficient to pay for keeping the engines and appliances clean and in repair. So egregious has been the neglect of the local authorities in many districts that the ratepayers have held indignation meetings for the purpose of compelling the urban district council to perform their duty in this matter. Now that is, so far as I have gone, the whole of the information that I have been able to obtain to put before the House with regard to the conditions of these fire brigades. It is not my fault or the fault of those friends who have been helping me in this matter that we are not able to give more, but I trust that what we have given to the House will convince honourable Members that it is necessary to do something to raise the efficiency of the fire brigades throughout the country. Now, I should like to say a few words upon the subject of the fire insurance offices in relation to the position they hold with regard to fires, about which there is a great deal of misconception on the part of the public. There are some people who think that it is the duty of the fire offices to subsidise the whole of these fire brigades for the protection of fire, but the object of an insurance company is not to protect the property of individuals from damage by fire, but to indemnify individuals against loss by fire. The protection of life and property is a matter which lies entirely outside their province, and the duty of maintaining the fire brigade is a duty which does not appertain to them. The reasoning which is applied by certain people to this subject to show that the fire insurance companies should maintain the fire brigades might just as well be applied to the life assurance companies in order to show that they should see that there was a supply of pure water and better sanitary arrangements, because by so doing you make the conditions better for the long life of the people of the nation, and thus benefit the companies; or you might apply the same reasoning to marine insurance companies for the construction of harbours of refuge, or lighthouses, or anything else which might represent protection against loss. I believe at the present day there are many insurance companies which insure against burglary, and you might just as well appeal to those insurance companies to help towards paying the cost of the police. It is not the business of the fire insurance companies at all to subscribe towards the cost of protection from fire. In point of fact the better the protection is the worse it is for the fire insurance companies, because, if the protection is good and fires are few, the rate goes down; but if the protection is bad the rate of insurance goes up; and you might suppose a case where, in process of time, if your protection is thoroughly perfect against fire, the rates would be so low as to be almost nothing. Now, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I have wearied the House, but I felt it was my duty to give as much information as possible in the interests of those: who wished to see this Measure passed. It is not in the interest of individuals, but in the interest of the public generally, and I have done my best to state our reasons. Now I shall take up very little time in dealing with the details of the Bill. The preamble is so very clear and the Bill is of such a character that anybody reading it will be able to understand it. As regards clause 2, that requires every brigade to be registered; but there is another reason also, and I think it is a good one, which is, that where your inspectors are appointed for a district it would be necessary to know how many brigades there are in the different districts, and to know the number of inspectors that you would require, so as to inquire into the amount of the cost. Clause 3 deals with the inspectors. Our idea is that these inspectors shall be retired officers either of the Navy or the Army. We want them to have all the authority they can possibly have; we. want them to be men of undoubted integrity, and the amount we propose as the salary of an inspector is something like £250 or £300 a year. I know there is an idea that these inspectors should be appointed by the county council; but I would point this out to the House: that if this matter is taken over by the county council, and that body has to appoint the inspectors, they can hardly be appointed at larger salaries than £20 or £60 a year. The result of that would be an enormous increase in the amount both of inspectors and salary, and I think that alone is a complete reply to the idea of these inspectors being appointed by the county council. Another thing is, we look on these inspectors as the substance and centre of our Bill, and I am perfectly certain, from what I have heard from one of the supporters of this Bill, that if inspectors of an inferior grade are to be appointed the Bill would be withdrawn altogether. The manner in which the inspectors are proposed to be paid is through the Treasury, and the merit of that suggestion is that the amount which is to be paid will have to come out of the rates of the various localities. It may be that the county councils might object to pay a sufficient and proper proportion, but I believe that the county councils themselves will fully realise the necessity of having a thoroughly efficient fire brigade, and I hope they will see the force of all the points in this Bill. The next clause, sub-sections 2, 4, and 5, deals with the manner in which this money is to be paid. What we thought was that the simple way to deal with that under this Bill would be that there should be deducted out of the county fund the amount that was due, and by that means the whole of the money could be paid into the hands of the Treasury and could be drawn upon by the inspectors. That would be a most simple way, and one that would give very little trouble to the Treasury. Clause 5 provides for the certificate of the Local Government Board as to the efficiency of any fire brigade, and upon the report of the inspector such certificate would not be renewed if the next report showed that the brigade had fallen back into a state of inefficiency. Clause 6 deals with the powers of the county council in case of default of the local authority to put this Act into effective operation in the district. With regard to this clause, the machinery of it is this: The inspector makes his report to the Local Government Board, who then grant a certificate to the brigade which is declared sufficient. Then they send out a report to the different county councils, who take notice of any brigades that are inefficient, and they call upon them to make themselves efficient. If they refuse to do so, then they make a. report to the Local Government Board to take action under this clause. I am inclined to think that if we had left the power in the hands of the county councils we should have stirred up an amount of feeling amongst other local authorities, such as municipal boroughs, urban district and rural district councils, which would have rendered it extremely difficult to carry this Bill into operation. Therefore, we have thrown these duties upon the Local Government Board as the only possible way by which this reform can be carried out. In sub-section 2 of clause 6 we point out how the Local Government Board can do this. Subsection 2 provides— Upon any such complaint as aforesaid the Local Government Board may make such an Order on the local authority in default with reference to the powers aforesaid, or any of them, as is mentioned in Section 299 of the Public Health Act, 1875, with reference to the matter therein referred to, and may appoint a person to exercise the powers men- tioned in the Order, and upon such appointment Sections 299 to 302 of the Public Health Act, 1875, shall apply as if the same had been expressly made applicable to the powers hereinbefore mentioned. Now I come to the next clause, which, deals with bogus brigades and private brigades. Upon this subject I have nothing to say beyond what I have already stated. Such frauds as I have alluded to have existed, and are well known to the public. On one occasion in connection with a charity organisation a certain gentleman carried on this business in a very large way, for he had six collectors, and one of them in twelve months collected as much as £360, and if you multiply that by six you will see that it comes to over £2,000 a year. Now I come to the last clause, which is clause 8, and this mentions how far the Act extends, what it is to do, and how far it is to go. One point which I wish to emphasise is that private brigades may adopt this Act, and by doing so make use of the inspection provided by it. I am quite sure, from what I have heard from several gentlemen connected with fire brigades, that they would be very happy indeed to make use of our inspection. I think this could be done if we make a condition that if they are to have this inspection they must not look after their own particular property, but take a fair share in the general work. Now, I have only got one more word to say, and it is with reference to the objection which may be made by the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, that the Government, may say that this matter is one purely for the local authorities, and that Parliament has done all it could be expected to do when it passed these enabling Acts, and the local authorities must be held responsible for carrying them out. The Government, then, having no further interest in the matter at all, and no further responsibility, and Parliament having passed those Acts, the local authorities must look after themselves whether they are to be effective or not. I should like to ask the right honourable Gentleman this question: Assuming that the local authorities under the Public Health Act decline to carry out some improvements, or something that is necessary to protect the water from impurities or to improve the sewage of the town in any par- ticular place, does the Local Government Board sit with folded arms and refuse to take any action there in such matters? No, Sir, instead of that they bring their powers to bear to insist that such work should be done and properly carried out. Now, all we ask is that if this is acknowledged in the case of sewage and water and other sanitary matters, then we claim that the service of protection against fire is a public duty of equal importance, and the State, by the very fact of having passed these Acts of Parliament, recognise their responsibility to the community to protect them so far by allowing local authorities to pay for the expense of fire protection from the rates. Surely fire protection is as important for the neighbourhood and its inhabitants as water and sewage, and if the local authority can enforce the carrying out of the Acts of Parliament with regard to sanitary matters, we maintain that it is their duty also to do so with regard to protection against fire. I thank the House for the kind attention which it has given to my remarks. I have had a duty to perform, and I have striven to perform it to the best of my ability, although I confess I have been unable to place it before this House in such a strong way as I think this subject deserves. I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill.

MR. BIRRELL (Fife, W.)

My learned Friend opposite, in the admirable speech he has made, has explained the object of the Measure, and gone into the details with so much loving care and minuteness that really there is nothing left for anybody else who supports his view to say, except to commend this Bill most affectionately to the consideration of the House. It is a rather curious thing that so essential a duty as fighting the flames should so long have been left in the very higgledy-piggledy state in which I am sorry to say it is in the rural districts in this country. Every year we witness with feelings hardly to be described the destruction of old buildings and of mellow pictures which no architect and no artist now living can restore. We see them destroyed, and thus the country to that extent is made less fit to live in, largely in consequence of our apathy in regard to what is as much a public duty as the police themselves. We main- tain, both by local rating and also partly at the Imperial expense, a great body of police who are most competent and efficient men, whose duty it is to suppress, as far as they can, acts of violence, crime, and robbery, as. well as to perform those kindly acts which are so closely associated with the name of the police. This matter of fire is a matter which civilisation has, so far, proved incompetent to deal with; and whilst education has done much to reduce the criminal propensities of our population, we are still left this great enemy of our civilisation, which we encounter with the same simple and incomplete weapons as were employed during the last century. The condition of many of our brigades in the rural districts in this country is, as the honourable Member has pointed out, most unsatisfactory. There are a noble body of men associated with the Fire Brigades' Union, who number upwards of 8,000 strong, who discharge the important duties which they have undertaken as well as their very limited means and the incomplete apparatus placed at their disposal will allow them to do. There are also up and down the country associations calling themselves fire brigades which have not got the necessary equipments, and which really live by mendicancy, and who go about in an attractive uniform soliciting alms just as the religious fraternities used to do in mediaeval times, and they offer us a very small defence against fire. Even the manner in which these voluntary brigades perform their duties is not always satisfactory. They are voluntary associations, but, notwithstanding that, they turn out to put out fires. They are obliged to make demands upon persons whose property they have protected which is perhaps not of the most satisfactory character. A man agitated by fire is hardly in a position to adjust their claims, nor is there any impartial officer to tax their bill or put any check upon them, except, indeed, the check which the law puts upon them by making their debt non-recoverable. We have seen cases in the county courts where these claims have been made, and where they have been defeated on the ground that the association being purely voluntary has no right to ask for payment for the services rendered. I say that that is a most unsatisfactory and lamentable state of things. It is not as if there was any difficulty in finding the men. We have already got the organisation which, if properly protected and watched, and if its accounts are properly audited, will be able in a most satisfactory manner when properly inspected to deal effectively with the great task which they have undertaken. This Bill is really nothing more than an inspection Bill. It will enable fire brigades to be inspected in the same way as voluntary schools are inspected, by proper and competent persons, who will be able to say whether those brigades are discharging or are in a position to discharge, or are sufficiently well equipped to enable them to discharge the duties which they have undertaken. If that is found to be the case, then, in my opinion, they ought to be supported by the district in which they discharge those important duties. It is difficult, therefore, to see what objection can be urged against the Bill, because it seeks throughout the country to secure in every rural district a properly equipped and self-respecting body of men ready to fight a common foe whom all desire to see suppressed. Therefore I do not suppose that there will be really very much opposition to that part of the Bill. There is no doubt in many minds an aversion to increase the powers of the Local Government Board. We find that this country is getting more and more into the grasp of the Local Government Board and the Board of Trade. These are not the most showy Departments of the State, but they are becoming rapidly the most powerful, and they certainly require a very large staff in order to discharge the important duties which they perform. Go where you will you find this country in the hold of one of these two Departments. If you wander by the seashore you hear the wild waves cursing the Board of Trade; and if you plunge into the Midlands you find yourself encroaching upon the territory of the Local Government Board. Wherever you go you find the name of one of these Boards on the lips of the common people far more than you find those of the War Office, the Foreign Office, or the other formidable Departments of the State. It is all very well quarrelling with the Local Government Board, but we are within its grasp, and we shall remain so. The marching orders of the democracy are Home Rule plus central control, which we all desire to maintain and increase, and we have got to deal with it. The only doubt I have is whether there are sufficient men in this great Department to enable them to get through the enormous work which they have to discharge; but I feel that the aversion which we have to increasing the powers of the Local Government. Board should not make us blind to the fact, although they are a little bit slow in their proceedings, that they discharge their important duties in a very admirable way. Therefore we need not quarrel with the question of central authority as it exists in the Local Government Board. People go into public offices, and are annoyed by the exhibitions of pedantry and trickery which they meet with, and are irritated and angry, and are consequently disposed to quarrel with the existence of this central authority. But, after all, there it is, and without its aid and assistance I do not suppose any measure of Local Government could properly be carried out. As a matter of fact, this Bill confers very little additional power upon the Local Government Board over and above that which they already possess. As I have said before, it is little more than an inspection Bill which enables the Local Government Board to call for returns from the various fire brigades in the country; it considers those reports and circulates them amongst the proper local authorities so that they may know what is the condition of the fire brigades within their domain. On the other hand, the Local Government Board will also have the power to appoint inspectors. I do not know that my honourable Friend opposite need have gone into the question as to who those inspectors should be, or from what portion of Her Majesty's subjects they should be selected. The Local Government Board would have their nomination, and would exercise that patronage in accordance with the same principle and in obedience to the state of public feeling under which it makes other appointments of the same kind. Upon these inspectors being appointed they will make their reports, and the whole machinery of the Bill, which is very simple, will be set in motion after these reports have been received and circulated and considered. Therefore we need not be frightened in this matter by the belief that this Bill is increasing very greatly the powers of the Local Government Board, great as those powers already are. Indeed, as a matter of fact, if you carefully consider the provisions of the Public Health Act of 1875, you will find that the Local Government Board really has, in the important matter of procuring a supply of water and other things necessary for the putting out of fire, the powers referred to by this Bill, so that there is really not any increase in power, but rather such a resetting of the existing machinery as it is hoped will secure that the fire brigades throughout the country will be put in the same state as far as that can be done as they are in our great cities, where they have given so much satisfaction to the inhabitants. I really think that this Bill is one which, if read a second time, and if properly considered in its details, will be found to work admirably in practice and will confer a great boon upon the country at large.

MR. MALCOLM (Suffolk, Stow-market)

I rise for the first time to trouble the House with a few remarks, feeling, as I do that the Bill before us is a very necessary Measure of great value in itself and practical in its form. I do not think that I could do better than read a letter upon this subject which has been put into my hands by the honourable Member the Mover of this Bill. It is the opinion of one who, I am sure, is connected with all that is noble in the fire service, for it is a letter from Sir Eyre Massey Shaw, who writes to the Mover of this Bill in the following terms: — 48, Rutland Gate, S.W. 11th April, 1899. Dear Mr. Pym, Seeing that yours is the first name on the back of the Fire Brigades Bill, which comes up for Second Reading to-morrow, I venture to address you on the subject. The consolidation of nearly all the fire brigades in the country under the National Fire Brigades Union has been of great public benefit, as the uniformity of drill and assimilation of appliances enable them to help each other in the event of need, which was not the case formerly, but we know that something further is required. As you are aware, I have retired from the position of President of the Union, which is now in the excellent hands of his Grace the Duke of Marlborough, who uses all his energy and powerful influence on its behalf; but I continue to take the deepest interest in it, and I am convinced that the statutory powers proposed in this Bill, especially the appointment of inspectors wholly independent of local influence, will enormously strengthen his Grace's hands, and result in an appreciable diminution of the waste by fire which every year causes so serious a loss to the national wealth. Holding these views very strongly, I earnestly hope that the House of Commons will pass the Second Reading of the Bill unanimously, and on behalf of the whole fire service of the country I cordially thank you and the other Member s who are using their influence in the good cause.—I am, yours very sincerely, JOHN E. M. SHAW. Now I think that that is a very strong expression of opinion in favour of the Bill. For my own part, I have to say that my own experience is—and I have had a good deal of experience lately with regard to country fire brigades—that which has already been referred to by two previous speakers—namely, that these country fire brigades are supported in a most haphazard and happy-go-lucky fashion. That, is the conclusion which I have formed after having inspected some score of brigades throughout the country. I have found constantly that the drills were very irregular, the appliances often dangerously defective, and capable or expert instruction totally deficient:—the firemen never had it, and it seemed to me absolutely non-existent; and yet it is to bodies such as these that the fate of villages, of factories, small towns, and historical buildings and pictures is complacently left throughout the year by too sanguine local authorities. Why, I think it must give pause to any honourable Member of this House who thinks there may be no case for this Bill and no grievance, did he find his house protected by one rate-supported engine, which I saw standing rusty, as it had stood for months, on the village green, with weeds growing in rare profusion upon its wheels; or by another engine which was lashed down by ropes and rings to the floor of its shed, making a swift departure impossible at an emergency, for the men could not get this engine out in anything less than 20 minutes; or again, to find the brigade horses employed during the day carting dust or stones or watering roads far away from the fire station. I do not think this state of things is very creditable to the councils or local authorities which are supposed to be in authority over these brigades. Therefore, it is to protect the public from serious waste of money of this kind that this Bill has been introduced. We also hope to secure for the fire brigades in the country districts some recognition of their public services, which I think urgently demand public recognition, and which I am extremely sorry has been so very long delayed. At present in this, of all countries, the fireman has no recognised status or position: no pride reposes in him as the acknowledged though voluntary guardian of life and property, and in consequence one cannot help noticing a lamentable absence of the esprit de corps which should be the essence of a public body. We ask then for some public recognition of the fire service through the Local Government Board, such as the Metropolitan Brigade has received with such advantage from the London County Council. But we admit that the public will not recognise that which is not efficient, and to increase efficiency is the Alpha and Omega of this Bill. We claim that by private agency much has already been done which certainly seems to be the function of public authorities. You cannot reasonably expect efficiency from men who have no opportunity of seeing the latest drills, of handling new appliances, or of learning their short-comings from the mouths of experts. To remedy this the National Fire Brigades' Union has done a great deal by holding annual camps and conferences, and has reformed a large part of the grievances of the country fire service, and it is this to which Sir Eyre Massey Shaw referred. The usefulness of the work is shown by the large number of brigades which annually join the Union; they send representatives, at considerable trouble and expense to themselves, to learn what they can for the benefit of the neighbourhood or the community. So much for private enterprise and individual energy. But surely that is not all that is wanted. Men are not made efficient by attending conferences and camps; depend upon it, they need constant inspection to keep them up to the mark as proper recipients of public money. That is the reason why inspection is insisted upon in this Bill. In the course of my perigrinations through the provinces, I have come to this conclusion, that it is obvious to me that the local authorities are not the proper people to exercise this inspection; they pretend to no expert knowledge at all, and therefore their opinion upon the subject must be absolutely useless, if not misleading. Therefore, it is at this point that we confidently appeal to the Government to accept the responsibility of nominating inspectors, whose visits to the vast number of brigades that fall within the purview of this Bill will prove their efficiency. We ask them to appoint experts whose hints and advice will be of enormous advantage to the firemen themselves; whose examination of the engines, hose, and tackle may be the cause of saving an untold amount of life and property; and, finally, whose reports to the Local Government Board and the county council will guide the local bodies, and guarantee an efficient expenditure of public money. I think there is one more thing which these experts might do. They might also undertake the expert opinion, for which coroners always petition the Home Office at a fire inquest, and which is never refused. It is well known that whenever there is a fatal fire the coroner often asks the Home Office for an expert to be sent down. The expert evidence is only to show how these things might have been prevented, and what was the exact cause of the fire. Now, I think the experts and inspectors whom we ask the Local Government Board to appoint under this Bill would be able to go down to the coroner's inquest and give evidence when these fatal fires occur. Now, why should not the Local Government Board undertake this duty? As has been pointed out, inspectors are appointed for many other branches of the public service. To protect the public from the dangers of disease there are medical officers of health; and there are inspectors under the Factories Acts. There are dangers from assault and disorder, and you have inspectors of constabulary—three in number. Against the dangers arising from ignorance I understand that the Committee of the Privy Council on Education have inspectors of schools; but there is no Government supervision whatever to protect the public from the appalling dangers of fire. Therefore we feel that we can ask this much from the Government to-day to help us to increase the efficiency of the fire brigades, and to give public recognition to the fire service by granting certificates to those brigades which the reports of the inspectors show to be efficient. I believe this Bill will be of great advantage if it only brings home to the country householders and the cottage-holders the true value of the fire brigades, composed as they are of men who carry their lives in their hands every moment they are on public duty; and the appreciation in which they are held by a great majority of the people of this country. On the Continent of Europe and in the United States, where I have had the opportunity of inspecting scores of fire brigades, the case is very widely different from here. I find that there the fire service is absolutely on a par in rank with the army and navy. All the privileges of reduced public tariffs in trains, tramcars, etc., which are given to the army and navy are also extended to those who fight fire. In return they organise with perfect discipline and efficiency their fire departments. But in England, there is absolutely nothing of this kind. I deplore it, but I recognise that this Bill will go a long way in the right direction to remedy our defects. If the House will accept, as I think they ought, the principle of the Measure, and appoint three inspectors, you will be doing a good thing—doing much to protect the public purse, to better the lot of and to lessen the risks to firemen, and to raise in the estimation of the public a service composed of men whose lives are devoted to the sacred cause of humanity, and of whose deeds this country ought justly to be proud.

COMMANDER BETHELL (York, E.R., Holdemess)

I hope I may be allowed to congratulate my honourable Friend on the very excellent speech he has made, on the fulness of his information, the skill of his argument and his very graceful delivery. I hope that he will very often take part in the Debates of this House. I would, however, ask the honourable Gentleman who has introduced this Bill whether, after all, there is a demand for a Bill of this nature, at any rate in the country districts. I don't know about the towns, whether it is necessary to bring in the interference of the Local Government Board with the management of local affairs. But I think that, upon the whole, the local authorities in the country, in matters like fire brigades, provide them when they are really found to be wanted. I rather question the desirability of calling in the Local Government Board to give further assistance to the local authorities in this matter. One object of the Bill is that the county councils are invited to interfere with the local authorities, but I think that, so far as we can, we ought to keep the spheres of the county councils and the parish councils and authorities as much independent of one another as possible. I daresay that the system of inspection proposed by the Bill might be useful, and that the Local Government Board would undertake that, if required, but, personally, I should prefer that the inspection should be at the request of the local authorities, rather than by the order of the Local Government Board.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. CHAPLIN,) Lincolnshire, Sleaford

I hope I may be permitted to add my tribute of congratulation to those which have fallen from the honourable Gentleman who has just sat down, to my honourable Friend who introduced this Bill, and to my honourable Friend the Member for Suffolk, for the excellent speeches they have delivered on the first occasion of their addressing the House. Although I am obliged to take a somewhat different view from that of the honourable Members, no one will dispute that the fire brigades of this country ought to be efficient. But this question which arises and which we have to consider is, in the first place, whether those brigades are so inefficient at the present time as is alleged, and whether a grievance has been made out which is sufficient to call for legislation on the subject; and, in in the second place, if that be so, whether the particular legislation which is proposed by the Bill of my honourable Friend is calculated and most likely to promote the objects in view. As to the first point, as to whether the fire brigades are so inefficient, and if there is really such a demand throughout the country as to justify Parliament in proposing legislation, I can only say, as the representative of the Local Government Board, that we have no information whatever to that effect. No complaints have reached us which would lead us to believe that this urgent demand exists, and as far as I am concerned, I am in complete want of information on that branch of the subject. One thing which appeared to me striking in the speeches of the Mover and Seconder of the Bill was the insufficient grounds and want of proof which they submitted to the House to show that a Bill of this nature was urgently demanded. My honourable Friend says truly that they are warmly supported by the National Fire Brigades' Union, but then he went on to say in almost the next sentence that he supposed that few honourable Members had heard if the National Fire Brigades' Union. Well, so far as I am concerned, it was only the other day that its operations came under my notice at all. I have heard that it has done very admirable work in reference to this question, but beyond that I do not think that either of my honourable Friends have adduced to the House any information sufficient to warrant us in taking strong measures on this question. What is it that the Bill proposes? First of all returns of all existing fire brigades are to be sent to the Local Government Board These returns having been made, my Friend says that ho will be able to judge what inspectors will be necessary, and how many should be appointed for fulfilling the duties proposed to be cast upon them. My friend has already done that. He says that inspectors are at present appointed, not in the usual way by the Local Government Board, but directly by the local authorities; but that under the new system, so far as he was able to form an opinion at all, three inspectors would be enough. But if the inspections were to be thoroughly carried out under the terms of the Bill, and if the county councils were to proceed to put into force the powers conferred upon them by clause 6, I think that probably the number of inspectors that would be required would be much nearer 30 than three. I say this because the number of local authorities who are empowered to incur expenses in connection with fire brigades in England and Wales, under various existing Acts of Parliament, at the present moment, and to which the Bill would apply, is something like 13,000, and those who have actually incurred expenditure already in connection with this subject are no fewer than 1,122. I think it has been stated in support of this Measure that the police are now inspected by the Home Office by three different inspectors, and that therefore three inspectors ought to be sufficient for the inspection of fire brigades. But I am advised that there are only 184 separate police forces in the country at the present time, and therefore they do not at all stand on the same ground in that respect as the fire brigades. Now, these inspections, when they are made under the Bill must be thorough and complete, and for this reason, that it is the duty of the Local Government Board to grant certificates of their efficiency. Well, how many of these inspectors will there be under the Bill? That will depend upon the action of the county councils. Under the existing law, under one statute or another, county councils, borough councils, urban district councils, rural district councils, parish councils, and parishes where there are no councils—all of them have power now to establish and to maintain fire brigades with all the necessary appliances for extinguishing fire. Now, whenever a county council is of opinion that the powers vested in these local authorities at the present time are not adequately exercised, then they have the power of calling on these local authorities to exercise their functions, and in default they fall back on the Local Government Board, to whom they have the power of making complaint. My honourable Friend seems to complain of the obligation he labours under of being obliged to fall back on the Local Government Board. A good deal was said in regard to the position of the Local Government Board by the honourable and learned Member for West Fife. He was very amiable in his observations, but he came to a conclusion to which I was not able altogether to agree, that on the whole it was quite right that the new duties should be cast on the Local Government Board. I am not clear at all myself that this institution of the fire brigade should be handed over to the Local Government Board. What is the object of these fire brigades? They are to give protection to life and property against fire, and a. fire brigade should certainly be an institution under some local authority. So are the local police; they are under the local authority, but they do not fall naturally or necessarily under the control of the Local Government Board; they are under the control of the Home Department. Therefore, the argument of the honourable and learned Member opposite does not apply.

MR. BIKRELL

I put fire and smallpox in the same category.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD

I do not know that fire comes under the same category as small-pox. There appears to me to be a very growing tendency on the part of Parliament, and especially of Committees of Parliament, to conceive that the Local Government Board is an engine by which Members can give effect to all the proposals which they can introduce into their pet Bills, and which they are not able to give effect to by any other means. This occurs almost every Session. But take this present Session. There are three important Government Bills—for one of which I am myself responsible, and which is rapidly approaching its last stage in this House—the Metropolitan Water Companies Bill; another is the Bill for the Acquisition of small houses; and, finally, the London Government Bill. Now I am sure the House has not the slightest idea of the enormous additional labour which will be imposed on the Local Government Board by these Bills. This is what happens Session after Session. When I first came to the charge of the Department I found it in many respects, so far, at least as arrears of work was concerned, in a state of chaos and confusion. With enormous difficulty and by large additions to the staff, I have, I hope, made great changes in that respect, and it is consequently in a very different position from what it was at that time. Still, by the constant additions to the work of the Department, it becomes more and more difficult for it to adequately perform its duties. It requires additions to the staff, which, it seems to me, is large enough already for almost any purpose that ought to be thrown on a single Department. I make these observations parenthetically, because I think something should be said in defence of the Local Government Board. But to return to the Bill. I am bound to say that I do not think that its provisions are calculated to work well. I have examined them with great care and atten- tion, both yesterday and this morning, and I have come to the conclusion that the Bill would be undoubtedly altogether unworkable. At the same time, I have the greatest sympathy with the objects my honourable Friend has in view in introducing the Bill. I think that this is a question on which we require more information than we have at the present time. The honourable Member's own words made that quite clear; for he began by saying that the whole of the fire brigade service is an absolutely novel question for discussion both in this House and in the country, and that it had never before been before Parliament. I believe he is perfectly right in that. He said, moreover, that he had had the greatest difficulty in collecting reliable information on the subject. That is very much the position in which all of us are placed at the present time. What I would suggest to the honourable Member is that instead of pressing his Bill on the present occasion—I do not wish to commit myself even to the principle of the Bill, which, I understand, is that the whole work of enforcing the efficiency of the fire brigades throughout the country is to be thrown upon the Local Government Board—instead of pressing the Bill he should move for a Committee of Inquiry into the subject. If he will undertake to do that, I shall carefully consider the proposal. The whole subject must be examined, and a great deal of information, which we are wanting at the present time might be gained, and on that information a Bill of a different character and more likely to carry out the object in view may be framed and introduced next year.

* SIR T. FARDELL (Paddington, S.)

I think my honourable Friend who moved the Second Beading of the Bill should be satisfied with the discussion and the assurance of a Select Committee given by the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board. Although I have not much personal experience of the working of tire brigades in country districts, I am aware that there is scarcely a report of the destruction of a large house in the country from fire which has not a reference to the breaking down of the fire brigade or the fire-extinguishing appliances. There is one defect in the Bill: and that is that it excepts the county of London altogether from its operations. In saying that, I do not suggest that any Bill would be acceptable which would interfere with the work of that excellent body, the Metropolitan Fire Brigade. I had the honour of serving on the Fire Committee of the old Board of Works, and some years ago on the London County Council, and having been a member of these am intimately acquainted with the working of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade. But it suffers from a number of voluntary fire brigades, which are nothing more than bogus associations. The men of these bogus associations dress themselves up in a uniform similar to that of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade, and they go about collecting subscriptions to a large amount all over London. That has been going on for something like 20 years. At last I was able to enlist the services of the Charity Organisation Society, but all efforts made to suppress these impostors failed, so far as I know, until last year, when a conviction was obtained at the Newington Sessions against one of the men who had obtained no less than £90 by going about London asking for subscriptions. He represented that he was connected with the Metropolitan Fire Brigade. Some years ago an attempt was made to induce the Metropolitan Board of Works to introduce a Bill for the purpose of licensing all volunteer tire brigades, but, unfortunately; the Board of Works declined to take it up, and the result is that the old state of things goes on much as before. The worst of these bogus associations is that whenever there is a big fire they set to work and frighten people out of their lives, and subscriptions are given to them in the belief that they are bonâ fide fire brigades. I have here a circular of one of these societies to which I think it is worth while drawing the attention of the House. It is called "The North London and Suburban Fire Brigade." The circular sets forth that the brigade has No. 1 Station at such and such a place, but No. 2 Station where, it is said, a fire escape is kept, is in identically the same place. The circular states that— The plant of the brigade consists of a manual fire engine, a pair of horses, a one-horse fire escape, and a hose cart, with necessary gear for extinguishing fire, and ladders for saving life; a hose cart for running by hand short distances in the vicinity, and one modern fire escape of the Perseverance pattern, with practical firemen, and a jumping sheet and ladders for use in gardens in front of houses where the escape would not be available. The circular goes on to say that— The brigade consists of an experienced superintendent, and a staff of practical firemen, who are at all hours (day and night) in readiness to attend any fire that may occur in the district The superintendent of this particular society called on me in 1897 for a subscription. I had a very long and unpleasant interview with him, and after he left I followed him up and went to his so-called fire station, where I found a small building in a back mews with what might certainly be called a fire engine and one man. However, I took steps to make inquiry in a proper direction, and this is the report which I got about the station from a reliable source— The station consists of an ordinary small house, with one or two small and obsolete items of apparatus that serve the purpose of the law, and consequently I cannot run them in as impostors. What is meant by that is that they have some apparatus, so that they can say they are a bonâ fide brigade, and not swindlers. The report goes on— Suffice it to say that they are not allowed inside the police cordon even if they appeared at a fire. They are deceiving the public, and, as far as I can gather, practically living off their ill-gained subscriptions from a charitable public who think they are aiding our Metropolitan Fire Brigade Widows' and Orphans' Fund. I thought it was well to call the attention of the House to this matter, and if this Bill is sent to a Committee I do hope that the President of the Local Government Board will agree to allow the question of registering and certificating all volunteer fire brigades in London as well as in the country, except those organised for private purposes, being included in the scope of the Bill. I think that is a reform which is most urgently needed, not only in the interests of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade, but in the interests of the public at large.

MR. PYM

After consultation with my honourable Friends I am quite pre- pared to withdraw the Bill. I thoroughly admit the argument of the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board that we have very little information on the subject, and that it is very difficult to obtain that information. I gratefully accept the right honourable Gentleman's proposal to send the subject to a Select Committee, when we will be in a position to deal with the matter thoroughly and effectively, and be able to produce a Bill which will give satisfaction to the whole fire brigade service.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill withdrawn.

On the return of Mr. SPEAKER, after the usual interval—