HC Deb 24 May 1898 vol 58 cc613-9

"Page 10, after clause 21, insert the following clause—

  1. "'(1) Where an urban or rural county district in any county contains a population, according to the last published census for the time being. 614 exceeding 5,000, the chairman of the council for the district shall, unless a woman or personally disqualified by any Act, be by virtue of his office a justice of the peace for the county, but, except when sitting in quarter or general sessions, shall act only within the petty sessional division or divisions comprising the district, or any part of the district.
  2. "'(2) The chairman of the council of any urban county district who is not a justice of the peace under the foregoing provisions of this section shall, if not a woman or personally disqualified by any Act, be a justice of the peace in like manner as if he had been, appointed by the Lord Chancellor under section 29 of the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854.
  3. "'(3) A chairman, before acting as justice under this suction, shall, if he has not already done so, take the oaths required by law to be taken by a justice of the peace.
  4. "'(4) The power of the Lord Chancellor, under section 29 of the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854, to select a commissioner to act as justice of the peace shall cease.
  5. "' (5) Nothing in this section shall apply to a borough.'"—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

MR. T. M. HEALY

said he thanked the Government for this useful clause, but thought it ought not to be restricted. If inserted at all it ought also to be made to apply to boroughs. In the case of Dublin they were governed not by magistrates, but by special metropolitan magistrates, and he believed the position was similar in Belfast. It might be useful to exclude Dublin, but why exclude Cork, Limerick, or Kilkenny? He urged the Government to reconsider this matter upon the Report stage.

Clause read a second time.

Amendment, proposed— Line 5, leave out from 'but' to end of line 8."—(Mr. Dillon.)

* MR. DILLON

said it appeared to him that the county magistrates in the counties of Ireland were divided into two classes, the privileged class and the circumscribed. He knew that some time ago there were magistrates who ranged at large over the whole country, and who sat where they liked. Words which restricted the action of the magistrate to his own particular petty sessional district were not in the English Act. Supposing even that it were true that new rules were introduced affecting all the magistrates, and preventing them sitting where they liked in a county, he thought that was a bad principle. These words would place popularly elected magistrates in an inferior position to the other magistrates, whereas they ought to have the right to sit anywhere in a county.

* MR. W. JOHNSTON

said his eldest son was a magistrate, and when appointed by the present Government it was distinctly intimated to him that he should only act in a certain petty sessional division.

MR. FLYNN

said he could not understand why magistrates who were popularly elected should be restricted. They had the confidence of their fellow citizens, and ought to have the right to sit in any petty sessional division.

MR. ATKINSON

I do not think the mover of the Amendment quite realises the gross abuses which used to arise when it was the custom for magistrates to sit outside their own petty sessional divisions, perhaps for some private or personal advantage. So great had the evil grown that during recent years it has been customary for the Lord Chancellor, when a man is appointed to the Bench, to inform him that he is expected to confine himself to his own petty sessional district; and afterwards, if the magistrate does go beyond his own petty sessional district, one of the matters he is asked to explain is what induced him to do so. But the ex-officio justices which this Bill creates would be entirely independent of the Lord Chancellor in this respect, and the object of this clause is to put such ex-officio justices as far as possible in the same position as ordinary magistrates, and to make each one confine himself as far as possible to his own petty sessional district. In other respects there would be no difference, but in this particular respect the ex-officio magistrate would, but for this clause, have far wider powers than the magistrate appointed by the Lord Chancellor.

MR. T. M. HEALY

I think the effect of the introduction of these words may be very curious in certain cases, though I am not saying that under the circumstances the provision of the Government is not an unreasonable one. At the same time I am inclined to think that the common law would operate if a man chanced to misconduct himself by going out of his own division, and thus carried on abuses which have properly been put down. Would it not, therefore, be better, instead of confining a man in this way by Statute, to leave the Lord Chancellor's jurisdiction as it is at present, and not to give an opportunity for the difficulties which would arise if the clause were allowed to stand as it is drawn? I hope that the right honourable Gentleman will also apply his mind to the case of boroughs. Take, for instance, the borough, of Wexford. The mayoralty of Wexford has been in existence for hundreds of years, and the Mayor is entitled within the borough to precedence even over the Recorder; and surely it is unfair to do anything which would make the holder of such an office inferior in point of dignity to chairmen of local boards?

MR. DILLON

My chief objection to this new system is that it ought to apply to all the magistrates, and that you should not set up in a county privileged magistrates who could go to a district other than their own, and others who are confined within certain limits; and a thing to which I strongly object—though I do not intend to divide the House on it—is this: that in the Bill creating these new popular magistrates there should be contained words which certainly seem to put upon them a certain stigma as of inferiority as compared with other magistrates already created. The Statute almost puts it, indeed, as if these newly-elected magistrates were likely to be men of dangerous character, who must be cribbed, cabined, and confined within their own districts. The honourable and learned Gentleman the Attorney General said that undoubtedly, according to law, men appointed for the county have a right to act over any portion of it, and that such right was only modified by the action of the Lord Chancellor in calling on a magistrate who had acted outside his own district to give his reasons for doing so, but that the whole custom and practice of the law was that a magistrate appointed to the county bench was really a magistrate for the whole county. As I have said, my strong objection to this clause is that it appears to place these popular magistrates in an inferior class, as it were, to the ordinary county magistrates.

MR. ATKINSON

I would point out a matter which seems to have escaped the attention of certain honourable Gentlemen with regard to certain borough magistrates. Take the case of the Mayor of Sligo, for instance. The Mayor of Sligo, though he is a county magistrate, can only act as a magistrate in the borough of Sligo.

MR. M. HEALY

The right honourable Gentleman has referred to Sligo. That borough is only part of the petty sessional district, and accordingly, when the mayor sits on the bench he has to consider whether a case has arisen within the borough or within that portion of the petty sessional district which lies outside the borough, and in the latter event he is not justified in acting. But what of the chairman of commissioners of Dundalk? He would, under this Bill, be made a justice of the peace not only for the urban district of Dundalk, but for any district which comprises any part of the council area. Let me take, for instance, the case of Drogheda. That and Dundalk are two towns in the county. One is at a higher status than the other by having a mayor and corporation, but the right honourable Gentleman will now give the chairman of Commissioners of Dundalk a higher position magisterially than the Mayor of Drogheda has, because the Mayor of Drogheda is reserved to his existing jurisdiction, which will be limited to the township of Drogheda, whereas the chairman of commissioners, being chairman of the urban district council, will have jurisdiction not only in Dundalk, but in every part which is comprised within the urban district. Thus the right honourable Gentleman gives the chairman of commissioners full power to sit upon any case in a court where the mayor in sometimes a justice and sometimes not. I am strongly of opinion that there should be done for the mayor, in a case of this sort, what the Bill proposes to do for the chairman of town commissioners.

MR. JORDAN

I hope the Government will adhere to the principle they have laid down in the Bill. I believe it was at our request that they put in the clause, and, as far as my experience goes, the chairman of a district council would, under this clause, be in the same position as recently-made magistrates who proceed from the Lord Chancellor just in the same position. We have been restricted to certain petty sessional districts as a matter of agreement between the Lord Chancellor and those who were made magistrates. I suppose the present Lord Chancellor is carrying out the same arrangement as his predecessor, and therefore I say that these men will only be in the same position as are those who have recently been appointed by the Lord Chancellor. I urge the Government not to recede from their position.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Line 8, after 'district' insert 'and such chairman of an urban district shall be styled and known as the 'mayor.'"—(Mr. T. M. Healy.)

SIR T. ESMONDE (Kerry, W.)

I beg to move on behalf of my honourable and learned Friend.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I do not think this is an Amendment which ought to be pressed. At present the title of mayor is a distinction, the value of which would undoubtedly be lessened if it were held by a large number of persons.

MR. T. M. HEALY

This is a concession which would cost the Government nothing; and may I ask the Government to read the schedule in the Act of 1842, and note the enormous number of mayors who were then struck away? I think if they do they will be somewhat surprised. The right honourable Gentleman suggests that the proposal would, if carried, cheapen the distinction. In America, in every little town you go into, not only are there captains and colonels and generals, but there is a mayor in every one, and in England I should say that there are at least 150 towns whose chief officers bear the title. If this Amendment were agreed to it would be restoring to these towns an honourr which in many cases they bore up to 1842. In other cases the chief officers were called portreeves, and titles of ancient dignity of that class. I repeat that, as it would cost the Government nothing, I think they might well withdraw their objection to the Amendment.

MR. JORDAN

I support this proposition. It would be some compensation for what the right honourable Gentleman has deprived the towns of in other parts of this Bill. We have really been deprived of things, just as the right honourable Gentleman himself is deprived by the Bill of certain rights and privileges.

MR. FLYNN

The distinction of being mayor of a great corporation and a man of some standing in the country would unquestionably lose its significance if the towns which now have the honour were put into competition with these little boroughs. Even the Lord Mayors of Dublin and Cork would hardly be in such a distinguished position if the title of mayor was bestowed on chairmen of district councils.

Amendment negatived without a Division.

Amendment proposed— Line 10, after 'section,' insert— And also the chairman of any town or township commissioners under the Lighting of Towns (Ireland) Act, 1828, or the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854, or under any local Act."—(Mr. M. Healy.)

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I could not accept the Amendment so far as the Lighting of Towns Act is concerned.

MR. M. HEALY

Then I move it without the reference to that Act.

Amendment, with the omission of the words "the Lighting of Towns (Ireland) Act, 1828, or" agreed to.

Clause as amended added to the Bill.

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