§ "' (1) A county council shall annually contribute towards any county infirmary or fever hospital which is situate in their county or to which, though situate elsewhere, they are by statute empowered to contribute, and to any officer thereof a sum not less than was so contributed out of the county cess in the standard year, or any less minimum which the Local Government Board sanction.
§ "' (2) Every county infirmary shall be managed, and the admission of patients thereto controlled by a joint committee appointed triennially, consisting of such number of members of the corporation of the "governor or governesses of the infirmary" appointed by the corporation, and of such number of members of the county council appointed by the council as the Local Government Board from time to time fix in the case of each infirmary, having regard as well to the proportion of the contribution out of the county cess or the poor rate towards the building and maintenance of the infirmary as to all the other circumstances of the case; and all powers vested in the corporation in relation to the infirmary shall be exercised only by the said committee; and every member of the committee shall have the same power of recommendation as a governor.
§ "' (3) Where the councils of two or more counties contribute to the same county infirmary, each of those councils shall be represented on the said committee.
§ "' (4) The foregoing provisions with respect to the management of a county infirmary shall extend to every fever hospital which is vested in the corporation of the "president and assistants of the hospital."
§ "' (5) Where the boundary of a county for which an infirmary or hospital has been provided is altered by or in pursuance of this Act, the contribution to be made to such infirmary or hospital shall be a subject of adjustment, and the Local Government Board in making such adjustment may provide for the representation of the council of any contributing county upon the said committee.
§ "' (6) Nothing in this Act shall deprive any existing officer of any infirmary or hospital to which this section applies of my privileges enjoyed by him under any Act, and such officer shall not be removed from his office except with the consent of the Local Government Board, but, subject as aforesaid, every officer of the hospital or infirmary may be appointed and removed by the committee appointed under this section.
§ "'(7) Any county councils may agree for the contribution by one council to the county infirmary or fever hospital of the other council 592 on such conditions as to the admission to the infirmary or hospital of patients from the county of the contributing council and the representation of that council on the committee for managing the infirmary or hospital as may be agreed upon.
§ "' (8) The Charities (Ireland) Act, 1832, and section eighty-one of The Grand Jury Act, 1836, are hereby repealed.'"—(Mr. Gerald Belfour.)
MR. T. M. HEALYpointed out that there were several cases which would not be covered by this clause, and urged that there should be a better system of representation.
On the return of the CHAIRMAN after the usual interval—
§ MR. DALY (Monaghan, S.)said he wished to draw the attention of the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the fact that in many counties the infirmary was kept up at the expense of the cesspayers, but was so situated as to be of very little benefit to a large number of cesspayers.
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURI recognise the hardship in the inconvenient situation of some of the county infirmaries to which the honourable Member calls attention, but it is a hardship which will, not be increased under this Bill. I cannot see how I can remedy it, and I do not see my way to make any alteration.
§ MR. DANE (Fermanagh, N.)I wish to call attention to the fact that there is no provision in this clause which will enable a county council to rebuild, or restart, an infirmary which may have ceased to exist. All sections of the Irish representatives are at one in the opinion that these county infirmaries ought to be preserved and carried on, and that ample power should be given by the Bill to the county councils to put them into condition. I hope the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary will consider this matter. I ask the right honourable Gentleman to give the county councils power to raise money for the purpose of repairing, rebuilding, and enlarging these infirmaries, and of restarting them in those counties where, by reason of the large cesspayers having 593 refused to pay they have ceased to exist.
§ MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)Whatever is done, something must be left to private charity, and if the county councils contribute a sum towards the up-keep of these institutions that is as much as can reasonably be expected of them. I think the Government are working on the right lines in giving the county councils power to contribute to the up-keep of the county infirmaries.
§ MR. TULLY (Leitrim, S.)I would point out that county infirmaries and workhouse hospitals often exist in the same district. I do not wish to see those institutions abolished, but I would suggest that if the two are not wanted the county councils should be left with discretion to amalgamate them, or abolish one of them.
§ * MR. W. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.)I hope the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary will give careful consideration to the desirability of maintaining these county infirmaries in all their efficiency. The county Down infirmary is the one of which I know most, and it has been brought to a high state of efficiency. I hope the county infirmaries all through Ireland will be maintained in a state of thorough efficiency.
§ MR. JORDANI think the Government are most wise in their policy towards the infirmaries, and this clause deserves the strongest support. The county infirmaries are a most valuable half-way house between the workhouse hospital and the private doctor. In order to encourage (he local subscriptions to these institutions, as many of the old governors as possible should be put upon the board as governors or members of the Committee.
SIR R. P. FITZGERALD (Cambridge)The question narrows itself down to this: Are you going to give representation in the future to the private sub-scribers to these hospitals, or not? That is the real point that has come out in this discussion. I am not quite sure if the Amendment of the honourable 594 Member for Londonderry does not meet the case, but before we come to that I wish to put it to the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland that the reason why batter attendance and greater conveniences are found in these institutions is that private subscriptions are given by people in the districts. Another reason why these hospitals should not be allowed to go to the wall, or be placed in a worse position in the future than at present, is that the local subscriber knows the individual cases of illness or accident in his own district, and personally has the power, in return for his subscription, of sending one, two, or three patients to be treated either in the hospital or as an outpatient. This is a matter of the greatest possible importance, because, in many cases, the patient is unwilling to go into the hospital, and it requires the pressure of those who know him to induce him to enter the institution. I am afraid that this clause will do something to take away the power of inspection and the power of sending patients to the hospitals, and, in consequence, will lessen the subscriptions voluntarily given by Irishmen.
§ MR. DILLONWe are all in favour of the principle of this clause, and I suggest that we should leave the clause and proceed to the Amendment. We are only wasting time now.
§
Amendment proposed—
Line 5, after 'sanction,' insert—
Where a county is divided by this Act into a county and a county borough, the county borough shall annually contribute a sum not less than was paid by the cesspayers of the county borough or out of any rate levied in lieu of cess towards such contribution in the standard year, or such sum as may bear the same proportion to any less minimum sanctioned by the Loral Government Board as the sum so paid bore to the sum paid by the cesspayers of the county outside the county borough, and the balance shall be paid by the county council; and the county and the county borough shall share the representation hereinafter provided for in proportion to their relative contributions."—(Mr. Vesey Knox.)
§ MR. VESEY KNOXsaid the Amendment related to cases which were not 595 met by the Government at all. Some provision would be necessary to enable these infirmaries to be continued. He did not suppose the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland would overlook cases like those provided for in his Amendment.
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURsaid the point raised in the Amendment of the honourable Member had already been dealt with by sub-section 5 of the new clause, which was as follows—
Where the boundary of a county for which an infirmary or hospital has been provided is altered by, or in pursuance of, this Act, the contribution to be made to such infirmary or hospital shall be a subject of adjustment, and the Local Government Board in making such adjustment may provide for the representation of the council of any contributing county upon the said committee.The Government, however, would be prepared to consider whether some alteration could not be made in the wording of sub-section 5 so as to meet the views of the honourable Member.
§ MR. VESEY KNOXIf the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary will look into the question I have no desire to press my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause read a second time.
§
Amendment proposed—
Line 5, after 'sanction,' insert—
Where at the passing of this Act a county infirmary is in course of erection and the amount subscribed is insufficient to complete the work, it shall be the duty of the county council to provide for the amount outstanding, either by means of a loan from the Board of Works or in such way as the council may decide."—(Mr. Murnaghan.)
§ MR. DANEdirected attention again to the cases of the maintenance, repair, and enlargement of existing hospitals, which, it was agreed on all sides, ought to be maintained.
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURIt will be convenient if I state the object of the Government in moving this new clause. It was feared by many that, with the transference of the powers of grand 596 juries to county councils, county infirmaries would be very likely left out in the cold, and that the subscriptions hitherto made to these institutions by the grand juries would no longer be maintained by the new bodies, and that, consequently, these institutions would come to grief. We provided against that by what is in itself a somewhat strong provision—namely, that the county councils should be empowered to subscribe to these county infirmaries as much as the grand juries did in the past. The Government grant has been given in respect of the contribution hitherto made by the grand juries to these institutions, and the county councils will have the benefit of some portion of the grant contributed by the grand juries in the past. If it had not been for that, I should have felt some hesitation in putting upon these bodies an obligation to contribute the same sum its the grand juries, who were not compelled to contribute, but who contributed voluntarily. Now we are asked by this Amendment to go further, and to say that, in the case of an infirmary which is being built by means of private subscriptions, we should absolutely compel the county council to come to the assistance of these private subscribers, and complete the building for them. Of course, if we do so, it is obvious that the private subscribers will subscribe nothing further. That is not a proposition which the Government can receive. If the suggestion were to insert a provision that the county council might, if they please, contribute money towards the erection or maintenance of an infirmary that is being built by private subscription, and if that suggestion is agreeable to all sections of Irish representatives, I shall take care to insert a sub-section in the clause giving effect to it. But I should like an assurance that that would be generally agreeable to the Irish representatives.
§ * MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILLI think the terms offered by the Chief Secretary are very reasonable. The clause as amended by the honourable Member for the Tyrone Division [Mr. MURNAGHAN] would only apply to a very few infirmaries. I believe it does apply to an infirmary in which I am immediately interested—the infirmary of Tyrone; but I do not at all 597 rely upon the interest which I may have in that institution. I think it would he quite reasonable and fair to leave it to the discretion of the different county councils whether they will or will not contribute to complete the structure of a particular infirmary. For my part I think we ought to be satisfied with what has been said by the Chief Secretary.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Amendment proposed—
Line 5, after 'sanction,' insert—
'"As regards the county of Cork, the county council, in addition to any contribution made by them towards the South Charitable Infirmary and County Hospital, situate in the city of Cork, may, if they think fit, contribute annually towards the North Infirmary and City of Cork General Hospital, situate in the said city, a sum not exceeding seven hundred pounds per annnum, and the said county council may also from time to time make such other grants as it may deem expedient to any other public hospital in the said city; provided always that the total amount of the contributions made by the said county council towards hospitals and infirmaries shall not exceed the sum of two thousand pounds per annum."—(Mr. M. Healy.)
§ MR. M. HEALYThe effect of this clause is to put the county of Cork, the largest in Ireland, on exactly the same footing as the smallest county in Ireland. Nobody, however, can doubt that so far from there being a general uniformity of circumstances with regard to these infirmaries, there is, on the contrary, a great diversity. I will illustrate my point by mentioning the case of Dublin. How would it be to put hospitals in Dublin on the same level as the hospitals in the smaller towns, and to limit the contributions in the same way as you would limit them under this Bill? Take another aspect of the matter. Infirmaries in such a place as Dublin do good not merely by alleviating human suffering, but they do good by enabling important medical schools to be continued, and that is pre-eminently the case in Cork. In Cork we have the most important medical school in Ireland, and if it were not for the existence of the two important infirmaries in the city of Cork it would be absolutely impossible for the medical school which exists there, and which has sent out distinguished medical 598 men, to be continued. Now, the position in Cork is somewhat exceptional. It comprises two county areas—the county at large and the county of the city. The grant by the city grand jury to these two infirmaries—the north infirmary and the south infirmary—has been equally divided between them. In the county, on the other hand, you have one infirmary situate not actually in the city of Cork, but at Mallow, and it is to that infirmary alone that the county of Cork can contribute. Some years ago the infirmary for the county of Cork was transferred to the city of Cork and amalgamated with one of the city infirmaries which, exist there. Accordingly you nave at present in the city of Cork, first the north infirmary, and secondly the south infirmary, which, in addition to being the city infirmary, is also the infirmary to the county at large. Well, Sir, as regards the grant, the condition of things is most anomalous. The Corporation of the city of Cork, which has a population of only 75,000 people, contributes £2,100 to the hospitals of the city, £700 to the north infirmary, £700 to the south infirmary, and £700 to the fever hospital. On the other hand, the great county of Cork, which shares in the benefits of these institutions, only contributes £700 a year, and contributes that to one of those institutions alone. Therefore you will have this state of things as regards the south infirmary, that the city will be compelled to contribute, while that infirmary takes, on the other hand, the contributions from the county of Cork; and on the other hand you have the north infirmary taking grants only from the city. The grand jury of the county of Cork, when they took this matter into consideration, especially asked that the county of Cork should have the power to contribute to those city hospitals, besides the south infirmary, and that is what I propose to do by the Amendment on the Paper. I do not ask that the grant to the Cork infirmary should be made compulsory on the county council, but I ask that it shall be in the power of the county council to contribute to the north infirmary, and to any of the other city hospitals in Cork which they may think fit There are a very large number of deserving institutions in the city doing great good, and doing that good to the 599 county as well as to the city, and I think the right honourable Gentleman will see that it is not fair to treat the hospitals in the county of Cork exactly as you would treat the case of an ordinary Irish county. As I have said, Cork is the largest county of Ireland, the city of Cork is the most favourably situated in the way of railway accommodation to serve the whole county in the matter of infirmary accommodation, and local bodies very much desire to have the power which the Amendment would give them.
§ MR. SMITH BARRY (Huntingdon)I do not wish to unnecessarily take up the time of the Committee beyond expressing the opinion that I think the Amendment is an exceedingly proper proposal, and I hope the Government will see their way to accept it. I, for my part, most heartily support it.
§ MR. FLYNNI trust the right honourable Gentleman will accept the Amendment. The city of Cork is strongly in favour of the proposal brought forward by the honourable Member, and I hope the Government will trust the Cork council with that power.
§ MR. ATKINSONHowever desirable it may be that these institutions shall have this support, the proposal is outside the scope of the clause. As there are apprehensions that county infirmaries may be starved by reason of the negligence of the new councils to continue the grants hitherto made by grand juries, provision is made to compel a continuance of the contributions, and to seeure representation on the governing bodies; but the present proposal goes far beyond that, and embodies provisions more appropriate to a private Bill. It may be very desirable that councils should be empowered to make such contributions, and in other localities there may be institutions in connection with which special circumstances may justify such assistance; but the matter is, in a sense, sprung upon the Government, and I would ask the honourable Member to postpone the Amendment to the Report stage, allowing the opportunity to consider the circumstances as 600 affecting Cork and other localities, should there be such, and to frame a general clause to meet all cases.
MR. T. M. HEALYI understand that there is a very considerable feeling in the city and the county of Cork with regard to the proposal, and I do not think a single voice will be raised by any class of the community against enabling at power of this kind to be given.
SIR R. PENROSE FITZGERALDI think there are peculiar circumstances connected with the city and county of Cork which justify the acceptance of the honourable Member's Amendment.
§ CAPTAIN DONELAN (Cork, E.)I merely desire to corroborate what has been said by the honourable Member for the City of Cork and the honourable Member for North Louth as to the general feeling in the county of Cork in favour of the Amendment.
§ MR. M. HEALYI must thank the right honourable Gentleman for the assurance he has given me. On the strength of that assurance I withdraw the Amendment
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. M. HEALYhad also given notice of the following Amendment—
The council of the county borough of Cork, in addition to the two sums of seven hundred pounds per annum which it is, at the date of the passing of this Act, authorised to contribute towards the South Charitable Infirmary and County Hospital and the North Infirmary and City of Cork General Hospital respectively, and the sum which it is at the said date authorised to contribute to the Cork Fever Hospital may, if it thinks fit, contribute a further sum not exceeding in the whole five hundred pounds per annum to such public hospital or hospitals in the city of Cork as it may think fit, on such conditions as to the admission to the infirmary or hospital of patients from the county borough and the representation of the council on the committee for managing the infirmary or hospital as may be agreed upon.
§ MR. M. HEALYHaving regard to what the right honourable Gentleman has said, I will not move the second Amendment, but I hope he will consider it at the same time.
§
Amendment proposed—
Line 10, leave out 'members of the county council,' and insert 'persons.'''—(Mr. Vesey Knox.)
§ MR. VESEY KNOXI do not think it is desirable to restrict the representation of the county councils upon these infirmaries to members of the county councils. There are many cases in which clergymen, for instance, who are not eligible to become members of the county councils would be most desirable representatives if they could be placed on the board of governors. It would be very difficult, I think, in many cases to get members of the county council to give constant attention to matters of this kind, whereas clergymen who minister at the infirmary can attend to the work without my very great interference with existing duties. I venture to think it is desirable where, as in some cases, it is difficult to get members of the county council to undertake the duties, to appoint other persons.
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURsaid he had no objection to the principle of the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
Line 18, after 'governor,' insert—
In the case of the South Charitable Infirmary and County Hospital, situate in the city of Cork, such joint committee as aforesaid shall be appointed by the corporation of trustees therefor, the county council of the county of Cork, and the town council of the county borough of Cork, in such proportion as the Local Government Board from time to time fix in manner aforesaid; and in the casa of the North Infirmary and City of Cork General Hospital, such joint committee as aforesaid shall be appointed by the corporation of trustees therefor, the town council of the county borough of Cork, and (if and so long as the county council of the county of Cork shall make an annual contribution towards it) the said county council, in such proportion as the Local Government Board from time to time fix in manner aforesaid."—(Mr. Healy.)
§ MR. M. HEALYI shall be quite willing to reserve the Amendment to a later stage if the Government ask me to do so, but I should just like to say a few words to explain its object. Under the General Infirmary 602 Act of 1889, the governing body of an infirmary is the governor or governors. In Cork, however, the circumstances are different. The South Charitable Infirmary and County Hospital, instead of having a board of governors, have a board of trustees. The right honourable Gentleman will see, therefore, that this clause does not cover the case of Cork at all. The reference to the "governor or governors" of an infirmary would be meaningless in the case of a body which is governed by trustees. All my Amendment does is to provide that the board of trustees, in the case of Cork, shall stand in the same place as board of governors elsewhere in regard to the appointment of a joint committee. The Amendment does not touch the principle of the clause; it simply modifies it so as to meet the case of Cork.
§ MR. ATKINSONI would suggest that the Amendment should stand over.
§ MR. M. HEALYI have no objection to that.
§
Amendment proposed—
Line 33, after 'privileges,' insert 'salaries and allowances.'"—(Sir W. Foster.)
§ * SIR W. FOSTERThe object of the Amendment is to give the surgeons of infirmaries the same privileges in the future that they have had up to the present time. At the present time the surgeons connected with the infirmaries are voted a certain sum by the grand jury. In addition to that they have other sources of income, a further sum being devoted to their allowances from the voluntary contributions Which are received. It is feared by many people that when this Bill passes the contributions to these infirmaries from outside sources will fall off, and that the officials in question will consequently suffer. I think it would be an injustice to these officials if by the passing of this Act any such accident as that should overtake them. I do not, however, think any such accident as that will overtake hem. I think the risk is exceedingly slight. I do not think the subscribers are likely to fall off. As far as I amble to form, an opinion, I believe the whole of the local life of Ireland will 603 be revivified and renewed by the passing of this Measure. Men will have greater opportunities of taking an interest in local affairs than they have enjoyed under the existing law, and I do not, therefore, see why we should regard it as likely that there should be any falling off of public interest in the maintenance of these infirmaries. I think the risk of the imposition of any extra charge on the ratepayers in consequence of this Amendment is exceedingly slight. But even if such a thing did occur, I think it might very well be said that all the work done by these infirmaries is work which contributes to the common good, and in the end will lessen the charges on the ratepayers. To my mind, while the Amendment aims simply at keeping the medical officials in the same position which they have occupied hitherto, it is not likely to make any extra charge upon the ratepayers, and on that ground, therefore, I hope the right honourable Gentleman opposite will see his way to accept the Amendment.
Amendment negatived without a Division, Mr. GERALD BALFOUR promising to let the question stand over for further inquiry.
§
Amendment proposed—
Line 41, after 'upon,' insert—
No ecclesiastical person shall, in right of his dignity or office, be entitled to be a governor or trustee of such infirmary or fever hospital as aforesaid."—(Mr. M. Healy.)
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURPerhaps the honourable Member will explain what he means.
§ MR. M. HEALYBy an old Irish Act, the Secretary and some of the governors of the North Cork infirmary have votes simply because they are ecclesiastics—that is preposterous. In the case of the general law the privilege is taken away by Statute, but in the case of Cork it has not been provided for, with the result that the Archbishop of Cashel and the Archbishop of Tuam are governors.
§ MR. ATKINSONwas understood to dissent.
§ MR. M. HEALYI can tell the right honourable Gentleman that they are—I am a governor myself. I know there are a number of Protestant dignitaries on the board, and I consider it preposterous to make ex-officio members of these gentlemen.
§ MR. VESEY KNOXI may mention that there are a number of other cases of infirmary boards in Ireland under the same disadvantage, and I hope they will also be considered.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Amendment proposed—
Line 46, at end, add—
(8) This section shall not apply to the Waterford City and County Infirmary."—(Mr. J. Redmond.)
§ MR. J. REDMOND (Waterford City)This Amendment is designed to exempt Waterford Infirmary from the operation of the clause. I do not think it is necessary to say more than a word or two on the Amendment. The City of Waterford Infirmary stands in a peculiar position. In the year 1896 an agreement was come to with reference to the appointment of governors, and as a matter of fact it is only getting into working order. There was an old Act passed in the reign of King John under which an old leper hospital was acquired, but it was practically useless until a number of benevolent people came together and subscribed £5,000 or £6,000, making an arrangement by which the building and endowment were taken over. These benevolent people then came to Parliament at considerable expense, and got a private Bill passed empowering the grand juries to contribute in order to help on the hospital. The object is to protect infirmaries from being starved. Every provision in this clause is changing the constitution of the governing body. I do not think it is applicable to Waterford Infirmary at all. It was settled by what was, practically, a compromise of the widest possible character. On the board at present there are representatives of the old leper hospital, also of the Protestant and Catholic clergy, the City and Company High Sheriffs, the 605 Mayor, the Members of Parliament for the time being, as well as a number of other gentlemen. In addition, there are a certain number who are elected for a year by the donors and subscribers to the hospital. I speak here on the part of the hospital, who consider that it would be a great pity to interfere with the constitution of the board, as this clause would, especially as under the constitution of the board at present the donors have got representation as well as other public representatives in the city. I do think the Government should exempt Water-ford Infirmary from the operation of this clause.
§ MR. POWER (Waterford, E.)There was a certain amount of opposition to this Bill when it was being passed through Parliament, but I think it would have been very much stronger if it had not been generally explained that this county infirmary would be subject to the laws as every other infirmary was. I think that was the general impression in my constituency of West Waterford. It was only the other day that I got a copy of a resolution from the Corporation of Waterford asking that the provisions of the Government Bill should apply to the County Waterford infirmary.
§ MR. J. REDMONDwas understood to say that the Mayor of Waterford was in favour of his proposal.
§ MR. POWERUnder ail the circumstances I can say, as far as my personal knowledge goes, that they were under the impression that Waterford County Infirmary would be governed by laws that apply to other counties.
§ * MR. SHEE (Waterford, W.)I rise, Sir, to say that I am opposed to the views of the honourable and learned Member for Waterford City on this question. There is no reason why special exception should be given to Waterford. When the Bill referred to by the honourable and learned Member was brought Forward it was clearly understood that the Government would introduce the Local Government Bill, and that very matter was referred to by the honourable Member for the City of Waterford.
§ MR. J. REDMONDNo.
§ * MR. SHEEThe honourable Member in his speech on the Second Reading referred to the principle that would soon be introduced, and that, of course, the county infirmary would come into it. For that reason my colleague and myself, representing the County Divisions of Waterford, did not oppose the concession by which the grand jury could vote £800 a year. This section, as proposed by the Government, provides for the safeguarding of the rights of all interests. The Local Government Board will have the right to decide, having regard to the words of the section, what representation will be given to the donors and to the county council.
§ MR. ATKINSONwas understood to say that the clause enabled the county council to contribute such sum as was contributed by the grand jury. As he understood the Member for Waterford, no sum was contributed, and therefore there was no compulsion.
§ * MR. SHEEWill not the provisions of the County Infirmary Act remain in force?
§ MR. ATKINSONThe point is what the grand jury contribute under this Act, and the second sub-section only deals with the representation of the county councils upon the governing bodies of the institutions to which the county councils contributed in 1896.
§ * MR. SHEESub-section 2 will apply to the case of Waterford County Infirmary. The County Waterford grand jury vote £400, and according to the present clause every county infirmary shall be managed by a board appointed triennially. The Local Government Board may, under clause 1, diminish the grant, or they may allow a similar grant to be made by the county council in the subsequent three years. And having allowed that change, the Local Government Board would thus have to revise the proportion of the governors nominated by the corporation of the infirmary and the county council.
§ MR. ATKINSONThe first sub-section provides that the county council will make a contribution.
§ * MR. SHEEIf that is the case the County Waterford Infirmary does not come under the section. This grant from the county council being voluntary, it would come under the same terms as the county of Cork in connection with the Amendment which was moved by the honourable Member for the City of Cork. If the right honourable Gentleman's interpretation of sub-clause 2 is correct, the Amendment of the honourable Member for the City of Waterford is unnecessary, and therefore I think this question ought to be reserved for consideration. I therefore ask the right honourable Gentleman to allow this question to stand over until he has an opportunity of further considering it.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
Line 46, at end, add—
(8) Nothing in this Act contained shall affect the mode of election of the physicians and surgeons of the Meath Hospital and County Dublin Infirmary who attend and serve the same without fee, salary, or reward."—(Mr. Plunkett.)
§ * SIR W. FOSTERasked what was the mode of election at the Meath Hospital which the Amendment sought to preserve.
§ MR. ATKINSONUnder an old Act of George III. the medical staff undertook to forego their right to a sum about to be applied to the general maintenance of the hospital. It was afterwards recognised that the medical staff co-opted a new member on every occasion when a vacancy arose, and this clause preserves to them the right of co-option.
MR. T. M. HEALYThe Government are quite willing to accept any Amendment to restrict their Bill, but any Amendment to enlarge it they refuse to accept.
§ MR. DILLONI would be rather in favour of leaving the medical staff to elect their colleagues, but to state deliberately that they attend "without fee, salary, or reward," is simply ridiculous, because I know from experience that they do.
§ MR. M. HEALYwas understood to ask —What about the house surgeon?
§ MR. DILLONIt is monstrous to put on the Statute Book that they serve without "fee, salary, or reward." It is ridiculous to put into an Act of Parliament what everybody knows to be false. If you want to keep within the line, you should say "without salary," and leave out the words "fee, or reward."
§ * SIR W. FOSTERI also think the words "without fee or reward" are too strong. There is always a reward, even if you look at it from the point of view of curing a patient. With regard to students' fees, I believe there is an explanation that all such fees are given up for the maintenance of the hospital. But even then I do not like such a system as that of co-option, and I would suggest that the last words be left out.
§ MR. ATKINSONIt is only in the private Act that there is a clause which prohibits the acceptance of "fee, salary, or reward."
§ MR. CLANCYsaid he was rather surprised the Government would not consent to the suggestion thrown out. He should not be surprised, because the Amendment was meant to preserve the Meath Hospital, which had been a tax on the people of Dublin for the last 50 years. Although it got £1,000 a year from the county of Dublin, where the large majority of the ratepayers were Catholics, and got £300 a year from the city—this even to the present year—out of 21 governors, only three were Catholics. The council would be ready for the future, and he hoped they would make a more tolerant use of their powers than the present governors. He was referring to this matter for the purpose of pointing to the policy pursued there. He thought it was really too much to say that when they were making the grant compulsory upon the Nationalists of Dublin, they should keep this hospital 609 a distinctly Protestant institution to the end of time. These honorary officers elected nobody but themselves. They were all Protestants, and, in fact, the whole thing, which ought to be managed on strictly Liberal principles, considering that Protestants and Catholics paid the money which supported it, was actually turned, so far as it possibly could be turned, into a distinctly sectarian institution. It was beyond reason to suggest that when they were changing the whole system of local government in Ireland, they should continue this offensive little body of Orange ascendency. He was surprised that the Member for South Dublin, his colleague in the representation, found himself bound, by apparent ties of allegiance to his party, to father such an Amendment as this. He knew that in private life the honourable Member was a liberal-minded man, and he believed he would not attempt to frame a clause of this character if it were not suggested to him by persons of a more bigoted frame of mind. He acquitted the honourable Member of a charge of bigotry, but he invited him and others to say whether, at the end of the 19th century, they ought to cling to such an idea. It simply meant the keeping up of Protestantism to the end of time. They knew that when popular influence became exerted in this hospital these gentlemen would find it advisable to drop their privileges, and he suggested to the honourable Member for South Dublin that the best thing he could do for the promotion of peace would be to withdraw this insulting Amendment.
§ MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELL (Dublin, St. Stephen's Green)said that, so far an he know—and he knew something of the medical staff of this hospital—not a single one of the honorary medical officers was connected with the Orange institution. What was sought in this Amendment was that there should be ratified a bargain made in this institution nearly 100 years ago. First of all, it ought to be understood that there were two staffs in this infirmary—a paid and an unpaid staff. The former were not affected by the Amendment in any shape or form, and would be appointed by the newly created body. There were certain medical and surgical officers who were paid, but, as he had said, this 610 Amendment did not touch them directly or indirectly. On the other hand there were some physicians and surgeons connected with the institution who, so far back as 1814, in consideration of surrendering a Government grant of £100 a year, which, up to that time went into their pockets, and that being devoted and applied to the maintenance of the institution and the wants of the inmates, obtained this privilege of co-option among themselves.
§ MR. CLANCYThe honourable Member, with that astuteness which characterised a member of his profession, said "They are dead," but he would have thought that in the case of a corporation the rights would continue. He was convinced that the honourable Member had never read the Act of Parliament.
§ MR. CLANCYHe had been made aware of the fact that it was not repealed; at least, the managers of the institution had informed him to that effect. He had no reason to believe that it was repealed.
§ MR. M. HEALYThe general Act under which £100 a year is given is repealed.
§ MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELLsaid that, at, any rate, on the faith of the arrangement, which had been stereotyped in an Act of Parliament, this £100 a year, instead of going to these gentlemen, was applied to the maintenance and support of this institution, and he could see no reason why this bargain should now be sought to be broken. He said nothing now as to the religion or polities of the staff; he knew nothing; he could not tell the Committee at this moment what the religion of any of the medical and surgical staff was. He was putting the matter upon a different principle—that if there was an arrangement founded upon an Act of Parliament, that arrangement ought not to be broken or lightly put aside. He hoped the Government would accept the Amendment, which they had intimated their intention of doing, 611 for it simply provided that what Parliament had already agreed to should remain the law, so far as it applied to the honorary physicians and surgeons of the hospital. From the moment that any one of these gentlemen turned his position from an honorary one into one to which salary was attached, he ceased to be one of those who had a right to co-opt, which proceeding was strictly confined to those physicians and surgeons who continued to act without fee or emolument.
§ MR. PLUNKETTsaid he could assure the Committee that he had not the slightest idea of what the religion of the doctors or surgeons or attendants or anybody else connected with this hospital was. When the Amendment was submitted to him by one of the doctors in charge it seemed to him to be a very reasonable one. The doctors had given their services gratuitously for a century and a quarter, and desired that that arrangement should be continued. However, it was extremely inconvenient that a controversy should arise at this period upon this clause, and that the Debate should be prolonged. He therefore asked his right honourable Friend to look further into the matter, and if he should see no reason for not accepting it, it might be brought up again on the Report stage.
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURI had no idea at all that any sectarian question is involved in this matter. It might, perhaps, be well, therefore, that I should have some time to look into the question and to consider both sides of it, and then it is possible some compromise may be arrived at.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause added to the Bill.