CLAUSE 74. (Hansard, 24 May 1898)

§ MR. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.)
This sub-section provides— Where the occupier is not entitled to make any deduction from his rent in respect of poor rate, and the holding is agricultural Land, he shall be liable to pay annually to his landlord a sum equal to half the appropriate standard amount, and such sum shall be recoverable as, and be deemed for ail purposes to be. part of, his rent. I have heard of a particular case in the county of Limerick where the lease has been made, and there is a provision in the lease that the tenant is to pay the whole of the cess and the whole of the poor rate, or that, if the landlords pay the excess in the poor rate, there is so much to be added to his rent. I can understand all the other provisions of the Bill, because they adjust the rent to the new conditions; but the idea of having the landlord's rent increased in a case in which the tenant is paying already the whole of the poor rate and in whole of the county cess, and in which the landlord is not liable, is absurd. Although the landlord is not liable, and although he is not now paying 566 any poor rates, he is to get an additional rent. I really cannot understand the provision at all, and I beg leave to move the omission of this sub-section.

§ MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)
This subsection is only carrying out clause 71— that is to say, in those cases where the landlord pays the amount of the poor rate in order to get the benefit of the agricultural grant in respect of the poor rate. I put down the same Amendment as the honourable Member for North Dublin, and I could not select a better opportunity of showing the iniquity of the whole-system. This is only part of an elaborate scheme in accord with the rest of the clause. You have no other way of doing it than where the landlord pays the poor rate at present, and if you are going to give him the benefit of the agricultural grant in respect of the poor rate, you can only do it by increasing his rent. Well, Sir, I do not want to rake up this old trouble, but I do not like to let this clause pass without one word. This is, no doubt, a singularly clear illustration, which will bring home to the minds of many people who have not hitherto appreciated what is being done under this Act the full effect of it. In a case which, was brought under my notice a tenant contracted by a lease 20 years ago to pay the whole of his poor rates, and now, under this clause, at any time his landlord is to get an increase of the rent he has to pay all that time. Sir, I do not desire to discuss this matter at any length now, nor do I advise my honourable Friends to go to a Division, but it certainly is a most clear and singular illustration of the evil of the whole transaction. The statement has been made that the difficulty the Government had to guard against in granting these new local institutions to Ireland was that they had to protect the landed class from the danger of being taxed out of existence. Well, Sir, this proposal has nothing to do with the danger of taxing them out of existence. It is in respect of taxes which now exist, and has nothing whatever to do with that. Under the cover of that danger of future increase—of an unreasonable increase—in taxation, they have lifted off the shoulders of the landlords the enormous burden of taxation to which they are subjected under 567 the present law. There is no doubt at all that the Government have taken advantage of this Act to hand over to the landlord; these enormous grants. Does any man imagine for a single moment that the Irish Unionist Benches would have remained so silent during these discussions had it not been for this clause? It certainly is a most marvellous thing. I have taken that view all along, although, having the example of last year before me, when the question of the safeguarding of the landlord was considered, I did not commit myself as to the financial proposals of the Bill. I have always recognised that those of us who speak for the Irish Members do agree with the Government policy, and that being so, we felt justified in abstaining from voting against any of these proposals.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
A landlord will be relieved of the obligation of paying the poor rate, but it will be made good to the union out of the agricultural grant. I think it is hardly necessary for me to enter into any general defence of this sub-section, because the honourable Member for East Mayo admits that it is carrying out the general principle. Of course, it is not the case that the Lord Lieutenant will be entitled to make any reduction. The honourable Member for North Dublin will see that the tenant will not pay more than he does at present, because on account of this relief he has to pay a corresponding sum to his landlord.

§ MR. CLANCY
I was under no misapprehension at all as to the effect of the clause. I am quite aware that the tenant will not pay more under this sub-section than he is paying at present, but of course he will pay the landlord an increased rent.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
But he will 'be relieved of the county cess.

§ MR. CLANCY
Certainly. That is the whole object of the financial proposals of the Bill, to give relief to the landlords, who are liable to rates. If they are not liable for rates, why should they get relief? The case is now just as if the tenant had bought his holding; he would be liable for all rates, and the landlord 568 would not be liable for any more, and it is just the same as if the landlords were getting a grant out of the Exchequer. I really cannot understand, if the landlord were liable for the rates, or was paying the rates, how he could under his contract be made liable for the rates in the future. But hero is a case in which it is suggested he will take for granted that a landlord will not be liable for rates at all; and although not liable for rates, and cannot be taxed, we are proposing to make him a grant out of the Exchequer. I cannot really understand this.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I am sorry that I have not made it clear to the honourable Member. If there is any special arrangement between landlord and tenant, that will be taken into consideration, and the reduced amount will be charged.

§ MR. CLANCY
On the contrary, there are many cases where there is an increase. I know a case in Limerick in which the landlord provided that the tenants should pay all the poor rates and the county cess, and, if they did not, so much would be added to their rents, although I am not quite sure that that was an increase over the old rents. In that case the Government would actually be making that landlord a grant from the Exchequer, although he is not paying the rates at all.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
That case is a perfect illustration of the proposal of the Government which provides for special arrangements between landlord and tenant.

§ MR. CLANCY
The landlord not having helped himself to any additional value by his conduct, the Government come to his aid and provide him with another addition.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
Only the occupier will get any benefit in respect of the poor rate and county cess.

§ MR. DILLON
In the case where the landlord pays all the poor rate he gets all the benefit.

MR. T. M. HEALY
Suppose a man wants a lease of a house in Dublin. This Bill does not give him any protection, and it prevents a contract from being made with regard to the rates and taxes. This is the strongest thing that has been done by any Government, for the tenant gets absolutely no benefit. It does seem to me strange that in regard to bind leased for 999 years in respect of rates the proposal is to leave that lease intact. The landlord. have not called out for this proposal. They have not been calling out, except as far as the country districts are concerned, fur the agricultural grant, and there has been no demand for this proposal in regard to towns. I hope the Government will say that as regards town leases they will leave them as they are.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I will ask my honourable and learned Friend not to press this Amendment at present, and I will promise to consider the whole question in the Report stage. I have already undertaken to consider the matter, to see whether a change cannot be made.

MR. T. M. HEALT
Under those circumstances I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

§ MR. M. HEALY (Cork)
I congratulate the draughtsman upon the skill with which this clause has been drawn. It deals with a very difficult subject, and it has dealt with it thoroughly without raising any unnecessary questions. I rise for 'die purpose of asking the Government if they have considered certain cases which I confess I have some difficulty in saying how to deal with. In a great many cases, 570 of course, when this Act passes into law, the tenant will owe his rent, and there will be arrears of rates which he will have the right to deduct, and it docs not appear to me that the clause has considered that particular branch of the matter. In examining this question I was really considering the appointed day, whether there really ought to be an appointed day and an appointed time at which this clause would operate in the case of a particular landlord and tenant. Obviously, of course, the clause ought not to operate at all except in respect of some case covered by the Act. Of course, Mr. Lowther, for six months, at any rate, after this Act passes into law there will be no agricultural grant, and when the agricultural grant is made it will only operate from March next. The clause as it stands is open to the argument that the moment the Act passes it will begin to operate on every landlord and tenant. But it is not clear how it will operate in the case of arrears of rent at the passing of the Act, and in the case of rates levied before the appointed day, but after the passing of the Act. A landlord owns, say. 10, 15, or 20 houses, and in return for his assuming liability to the rating authority for the rates the law enables the rating authority to give him a bonus, by reason of a discount on those rates. I allude to the compounding householders in Ireland, who, by virtue of a private Act of Parliament passed for Dublin and Belfast, can take advantage of the principle of compounding which is established there. It is a most beneficial principle, and its object is to' induce owners of property in Ireland to become responsible for the rates, and to encourage them to build houses for the working classes. The idea is that the ordinary investor of capital shall not be discouraged from going in for house property by the high rates. The Corporation of Dublin thought it very important to get that power in 1890, and since then the Corporation of Belfast have also done so. I do not think that anything in this Act ought to interfere with the special powers which these corporations have got. I am quite aware that it is only in the case of poor rate that it would in any way affect it, because in the matter of the other rates, although the occupier might, under 571 this clause, be compelled to pay, he would deduct the amount under this Act. But in the case of the poor rate that would not be so, and I would suggest that upon the Report stage the matter may be considered as to whether the corporations could not be excepted.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
In answer to the honourable Member, he is quite accurate in saying that the Act should come into operation within the period covered by the agricultural grant. With regard to the other point we propose to accept the clause which stands in the name of the honourable Member for Belfast on page 50.

§ MR. DILLON
The honourable Member for Cork has approached this question from the point of view of the skilled advocate. I now propose to consider it from the point of view of the ignorant outsider, the more general point of view I think, as do those for whom I act, throughout Ireland. Speaking from the point of view of the farmers and the ignorant outsiders, I want to know how the thing is going to work in cases of disputes arising. Nothing in this world can be more certain than the fact that innumerable disputes will arise, and what I desire is to have some explanation as to what machinery is to be employed, and some hone held out to us that this thing will not lead up to law suits.

§ MR. M. HEALY
There cannot be any law suits.

§ MR. DILLON
Well, that is a great comfort, at all events. The subject is one of numerous complexities, because the relief is applied only in connection with the relief given to the agricultural land, and all the buildings are to be left under the old law; for by sub-section 8 he is entitled— to deduct from his rent the like proportion of any sum paid by him for poor rate on account of any railway, ha bour navigation, or public health charge, as he would hive been entitled to deduct from his rent on account of any cess or rate or charge. He would hare been able to do that. Then sub-section 9 provides— that the secretary of the county council shall, on request by the landlord or occupies of any holding, give, a certificate of the rateable holding and of the standard value in the £ under 572 this Act for the union or district in which the holding is situate, and where the holding consists partly of building and partly of land shall distinguish the rateable value of that portion which consists of buildings and of the portion which consists of land. The said certificate shall be in such form and contain such particulars, and the secretary of the county council shall be entitled to such payment for each certificate as may be prescribed. I think all these will have to be given to everybody, but as it is the only means by which they will be able to ascertain what their rights are under this clause I think they ought to be given free. I do not think it right that a small farmer should have to pay to see what his rights are, and, although I am very glad to hear from the honourable Member for Cork that under no circumstances can law suits arise, still my own idea is that disputes can and will arise. I have seen most bitter disputes arise, engendering great ill-feeling and creating very bad blood, over a matter of 5s. Bad blood and frequently law suits and broken heads I have seen arise over sums so small that honourable Members of this House could not imagine for a moment that anything of the kind could be possible. I should like to have some assurance that everybody in Ireland will obtain free a statement from which he will be able to ascertain exactly what, his rights are under this clause as regards his ability and right to deduct from his rent the amount he pays.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
Of course there will be a good deal of friction under this clause, but so far as we have been able we have done what we could to avoid it. As to the certificate which sub-section 9 provides shall be furnished to the secretaries of the county councils, we shall propose that merely a nominal sum shall be charged for that.

§ MR. DILLON
I shall put in an Amendment upon this clause when the Bill comes up again.