CLAUSE 55.

HC Deb 23 May 1898 vol 58 cc428-55

Amendment proposed— Omit sub-section 2."—(Mr. Flynn.)

MR. FLYNN

moved to omit sub-section 2, directing that— A county council may provide for the performance by a deputy of the duties of any officer in case of his illness, absence, or incapacity. He made this proposal now, with the view of raising the whole question on a section of the new clause which the Chief Secretary had promised to bring in, and he desired to provide that the county council should have power to take over and appoint not only the secretary to the grand jury, but also his qualified assistants and clerks.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

The question does not apply under this clause at all, for it arises on clause 72. If this Amendment is inserted here it will simply prevent the secretary of the grand jury from himself appointing a qualified assistant. Sub-section (b) empowers the county council to appoint— Such assistant surveyors and such further officers as they think necessary for the performances of duties of the council. The Amendment as it stands will prevent these officers doing this.

MR. FLYNN

I do not see that that will prevent the secretary appointing his own assistants, and there is no hardship in that. My point is this: that the Grand Jury Act did not appoint these assistants. I was the secretary of the grand jury who had the power of appointing its own assistants, who were looked upon as temporary clerks, and were not recognised in any way by the grand jury. It is true that sub-section (b) does give the county council power to appoint clerks, and I shall not press my Amendment. I rise, however, on this occasion in order to give notice that on clause 72 I shall have something more to say, because we have a very strong feeling with regard to these assistant clerks.

MR. M. HEALY

This Amendment raises a somewhat wide question, and I should be glad to get some definite opinion on the question from the Government. The clause as it stands might be greatly improved, and it will be just as convenient to discuss it on this Amendment as upon any other. With regard to the original framing of the Grand Jury Act, there is no doubt that what the Grand Jury Act did was this: it gave the grand jury power to appoint a certain number of officers—I admit it was a very small number—and it was strictly limited to that number. You had the secretary of the council, the treasurer of the county, the county surveyor, and the assistant county surveyor. That embraced all the officers it was possible for the grand jury to appoint. Well now, Sir, of course everybody knows that the affairs of a county could not be carried on or worked with a staff of that kind. Everybody knows that the county surveyor cannot do all his own clerical work. Similarly, the county treasurer of the grand jury would not think of doing all the work himself, and he would want clerks. The Act provided and fixed the statutory salary, which was not a very large one as the Grand Jury Act originally stood, but it has been somewhat increased by recent Acts, and the idea was when the salary was fixed it should be on such a basis as would enable these principal officers to provide them- selves with such a staff as would be necessary for county purposes. Well now, Mr. Lowther, on the framing of the Government clause they do not adopt the old system, and they do not wholly adopt the new system. They adopt the old system so far as it relates to the salaries named in the Act. The salary of the secretary to the county is fixed by the council, and so is the salary of the county surveyor; and the Act gives generally powers to appoint such further officers as they may think necessary for the performance of the duties of the council. Therefore you have the disadvantages of both systems. You have on the one hand the principal officers' salary fixed on a basis which presumes that they shall pay out of it a large number of sub-officials, and on the other hand you give power to the grand jury to themselves take into their own direct employment a number of officers who would really have to do the work. I think the convenient course for the Government to have taken would have been to have set up some machinery for ascertaining what the net emoluments of each of these head officers will be—that is, the secretary and treasurer and the county surveyor, and any other officer of that kind whom they have to take over—and fix the salary on that basis for these head officials, and then enable the county to take over under their own direct control these sub-officials whom, up to the present, they have had to employ themselves and pay out of their own salary. At present you have the head officials and the employees under them, who are not the servants of the grand jury; and besides these you will have a number of fresh officials, without any limit to their number, and without any statutory limit as to their remuneration, provided in this section. I think, as I have said before, that the convenient way would be, when you are dealing with these head officials, to fix their salaries as a personal salary, and if they want officials under them—as all of them must, because the whole work of the county, including the preparing of the jury and voters' lists, will be thrown upon them, and the work will not be done by anything like the same staff as at present provided, for that would be simply absurd—I put it to the Govern- ment and to the right honourable Gentleman that they will do well to consider a recasting of the whole scheme of remuneration which will get rid of the original idea on which this clause is framed—namely, that some big official can get a sufficiently large salary to cover, not only his own salary, put also a number of other sub-officials.

MR. W. JOHNSTON

After what has been said, I appeal to the honourable Member to withdraw his Amendment.

MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)

May I state that he has already done so?

MR. TULLY (Leitrim, S.)

This Amendment seems to me to tend in the direction of making deputy officials permanent under the county council, and I do not think it is exactly an Amendment to which we can give our support. Nothing has tended more to waste the ratepayers' money than this system of having the work done by deputy. Most of the councils with which I am acquainted have their work done by deputy, and the result is that we seldom see the principal officials at all. I know an official who has been drawing his £400 a year for the last 20 years, and who was seldom in Ireland at all, for he was mostly away in the South of France. Two or three years ago he retired on his pension for discharging his duties in Ireland whilst in the South of France. If this Amendment means that we are to have this system set up under the county councils, I for one shall oppose it.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

This is in cases where the salaries are paid by the Local Government Board.

MR. G. MURNAGHAN

The honourable Members who have spoken upon this question have brought under the notice of the Chief Secretary matters which he will do well to consider. He has said that the officials of the grand juries have salaries which will enable them to keep clerks or assistants, and therefore I think it is a most important consideration, whenever the Chief Secretary adjusts the salaries, to make arrangements in that respect. I think it is a proper thing that all chief officials should have under them some person who will be responsible in their absence. I think this question is worthy of his serious consideration.

MR. FLYNN

After what has fallen from the Chief Secretary I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment proposed— At end of sub-section 3, leave out the words 'by the Local Government Board,' and insert 'by a banking company.'"—(Mr. J. H. M. Campbell.)

MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELL (Dublin, St. Stephen's Green)

I am not going to waste time on this Amendment, and I only put it forward because I think it will probably be accepted by honourable Members opposite. If there is any objection to it I shall not press it.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

That is provided for by the Order in Council.

SIR R. PENROSE FITZGERALD (Cambridge)

In some counties there are more than one chief official with subordinates under them. I want to know is there only going to be one head surveyor, and are the others to be all assistants?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 30, lines 27 and 28, leave out, 'subject to any statutory limits.'"—(Sir T. Lea.)

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

It is already extended to all principal officers.

* SIR THOMAS LEA (Londonderry, S.)

Then I withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 30, line 27, after 'subject,' insert— In the case of any officer whose salary can be fixed without the concurrence of the Local Government Board."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

MR. M. HEALY

Do I understand that in the case of a secretary to the county council, the county surveyor, or the assistant surveyor the salary could not be altered? Does the statutory limit still apply?

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

Yes.

MR. M. HEALY

Then there is a statutory limit to the secretary, the treasurer, the surveyor, and the assistant surveyor. Now, the assistant surveyor only gets £80 a year, which is a ridiculous salary.

Amendment agreed to without a Division.

Amendment proposed— Page 30, line 35, leave out from beginning, to 'the county,' in line 36. Page 30, line 36, after 'council,' insert, 'may take from a treasurer when a banking company and.'"—(Mr. (Gerald Balfour.)

Amendments agreed to without a Division.

Amendment proposed— Page 30, line 38, after 'security,' insert, 'from a guarantee society or company.'"—(Mr. Daly.)

MR. DALY (Monaghan, S.)

The reason I move this Amendment is that, when officers are appointed, either to do the work for boards of guardians or for the county councils, the securities put forward by them shall not be men of straw. The reason that makes me put down this Amendment is that recently in county Monaghan the grand jury appointed cess collectors, and they came before us with a deficiency of £3,000; and when the sureties given were applied to by the grand jury for the deficiency they were found in most cases to be men of straw, who had mortgaged what property they possessed, and the grand jury could not realise anything worth their while of the amount of which the cess collectors were defaulters. My other reason is that when officers become appointed to boards of guardians the officer has to provide his own security, and he has to pay for the execution of his bond. I know, however, that in a great many instances the officer is able to get round the guardians, and get them to pay for the bond. If a guarantee society were appointed, subject to the approval of the Local Government Board, it would be much safer for the boards of guardians and the county councils in the future. I think I am right in saying that in effect this Amendment of mine is carried out in the same way in England, and I think the right honourable Gentleman needs be under no difficulty in accepting this Amendment, for my object is only to prevent a state of affairs that has happened in Monaghan happening again. I beg leave to move my Amendment.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I am afraid that I cannot accept the Amendment, for it appears to be a rather strong Measure, which will enable the guarantee societies to run up their terms.

MR. DALY

As the right honourable Gentleman has stated that this might run up the terms of the guarantee societies, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 30, line 40, leave out sub-section 4. (Mr. Daly.)

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

Under this clause the county council have the power of appointing a secretary to the county council, a county treasurer, a county surveyor, and an assistant county surveyor, and other officers, but under this section they provide— Where any part of the salary of an officer of a county council is paid out of money provided by Parliament, or from the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account, he shall not be appointed or removed, nor shall his salary be fixed or altered without the concurrence of the Local Government Board. Then the sub-section proceeds— And for the purpose of this enactment part of the payment to every county council, out of the agricultural grant, shall be deemed to be paid in respect of part of the salary of the secretary of the county council, and of the county surveyor, and of any assistant surveyor. Therefore, by this sub-section the county council will be in this position; they cannot appoint even their secretary, treasurer, surveyor, or assistant surveyor without the consent of the Local Government Board, nor can they dismiss them. Therefore, I should like an explanation of this very wide departure from the English Act. I think that this provision is objectionable in a two-fold sense. It is objectionable in the first place, to take away from an important representative body the power to ensure its servants against the injustice of wrongful dismissal. We know perfectly well that there are a great many public bodies in Ireland who are not permitted to dismiss their own officials, and the result is that their officials are not very civil, and they are by no means very amenable to the direction of those in whose employment they are. Something may be said in favour of that system—though I myself am not in favour of it—when we are dealing with the case of very small and comparatively unimportant appointments; but when we come to deal with very large appointments, then I think it is monstrous that these officials, particularly the officials into whose hands the whole of the administration will fall, should be placed in such a position that they may set their employers at absolute defiance and be backed up by the Local Government Board in that particular. I confess, however, that I attach much more importance to the question of appointment. The Chief Secretary said that this was really to a large extent a purely formal provision, and that he knew that it would be used only to prevent improper appointments being made. Well now, Sir, that is a very extraordinary attitude to take, because it amounts to this: that the Local Government Board at Dublin should have control, and should be able to say what is a proper appointment and what is an improper appointment. There is nothing laid down in the Orders in Council for their guidance, and there is no regulation preventing them using that power arbitrarily. I should like to know why the Government, having undertaken to give to Ireland the same privileges as are enjoyed by this country under the English Act, have departed from it in so important a particular as the appointment of officers. I know that in England the county clerk is appointed by the council, subject to the approval of the Local Government Board, but that is the only case, and that is so because he has to discharge certain legal duties in connection with his office, and that is the only reason why, under the English Act, he is not appointed by the county council. But these powers which are conferred upon the Irish Local Government Board are not conferred upon the English Local Government Board under the Act. But I will go further and say that, even if they were conferred on the English Local Government Board, it is a much more injurious thing, and far more likely to cripple, and annoy, and embarrass these Irish local bodies to confer such powers upon the Irish Local Government Board than would be the case with the English Local Government Board, because in England such power would only be used in the case of some very scandalous appointment. I refuse to accept from the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland the statement that, in his judgment, the Irish Local Government Board will not use that power.

MR. T. M. HEALY

The first part of the section says— As respects the officers of the county council, the council of a county other than a county borough, subject to the provisions hereinafter contained. This does not apply to county boroughs, but it would be open to say that section 4 does, especially when you have regard to the powers conferred under section 17, where it says, at line 19— The provisions of this Act with respect to administrative counties shall, so far as circumstances admit, apply in the case of every such borough, with the necessary modifications. The exceptions are only about main roads, etc. It appears to me that this is a section that should be allowed to exist only for a limited period. It may be that, at the opening stage of these county councils, some such provision may be necessary; but I think five years will give the Government all the protection they desire.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

This clause does not apply to county boroughs. If the honourable Member will look at subsection I he will see that it reads— As respects the officers of the county council, the council of a county other than a county borough. County boroughs are expressly excluded.

MR. M. HEALY

Look at subsection 6.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I am quite willing to make it clear that the subsection does not apply to county boroughs. In the case of the county surveyor it is desirable that there should be some check. One consideration, the importance of which it is impossible to exaggerate, is the desirability of having as good men as possible to discharge these duties, and you will get a very much better class of men if you have the support of the Local Government Board than without that provision. Considering how much, after this Bill passes, will be contributed from the Imperial Exchequer to the local authorities in Ireland, it is not unreasonable that some check should be imposed.

MR. DILLON

The county council appoints the men whom you approve. That is the whole point; and any man who makes himself obnoxious to the Government will have a cross put against his name. We have had from the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland a perfect disclosure of the whole policy of the Government. We know now that the Local Government Board and the Castle authorities regard those men as to a large extent their servants; and the men who expect to obtain these local appointments in Ireland will feel it necessary to abstain from giving the authorities umbrage. If the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary were justified in his argument he ought to go further, and take away from all the municipal corporations of Ireland the right to appoint their officers. I have no desire to prolong unduly this discussion, but I hope the honourable Member who moved this Amendment will carry it to a Division, in order that it may not be used as an argument against us in the future that we allowed this clause to go through unchallenged, because the time will come when the Government will be obliged to withdraw the greater part of these restrictions.

MR. M. HEALY

May we take it that this sub-section relates only to secretaries and county surveyors? Because I am not quite sure that there is not a snake in the grass in the earlier subsection.

COLONEL SAUNDERSON (North Armagh)

I hope the Government will remain firm and keep this clause as it stands. I would rather see the county officers creatures of the Local Government Board than creatures of the National League.

MR. DILLON

Do I understand that no member of the National League is to be appointed?

COLONEL SAUNDERSON

Certainly not. I do not wish to see politics introduced at all; but I fear that at first, at any rate, that will happen, and that in consequence the worst possible selection of officers will be made. From what I know of certain parts of Ireland I think it is likely that membership of the National League will be a strong inducement to appointment to these offices. I have had representatives from all parts of Ireland hoping that the officers of the county council will not be absolutely at the beck and call of the League.

MR. MURNAGHAN

I desire to express the hope that the Government will agree to the reasonable representations of the Irish Members on this question, because I feel that, in placing these irritating restrictions upon these bodies, they are doing the very thing that will militate against the smooth working of local government in Ireland. I do not see why the people of Ireland cannot be trusted to manage their own affairs. They have more interest in their own affairs than any outsider can have. Speaking from my own experience, I say that we should not, in the early stages of local government, be hampered with these irritating restrictions. Why should not the local bodies in Ireland appoint their own officials? It is annoying to think that these local bodies are there merely to carry out the will of the Local Government Board in Dublin.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I do not think that any instance can be pointed out in which the Local Government Board refused their sanction to the appointment of an official, except on thoroughly reasonable grounds. The honourable Member for East Mayo says that the Local Government Board of Ireland is not amenable to the criticism of Parliament exactly in the same way as the English Local Government Board. But I venture to say that under no circumstances would the Local Government Board give their sanction to the appointment or the dismissal of an officer without consulting the Chief Secretary. The thing is absolutely out of the question. And there is certainly no ground for the supposition that the Local Government Board will use their power merely in order to secure appointments for their political friends.

MR. DILLON

Have the Irish Members ever succeeded in reversing the action of the Irish Local Government Board by bringing a question before the House? The English Local Government Board do not do these things, because they have to defend their action before the House.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

So it is here.

MR. DILLON

What would be the position if a reduction of the salary of the President of the English Local Government Board were carried by five votes to one of the English Members? Either the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board would disappear or the policy would be reversed. But the Irish Members may carry a reduction by five to one of the Irish votes, and it would make no more difference than waiter on a duck's back. We have only the satisfaction of compelling the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary to sit on these benches and listen to the Irish Members; but, so far as business is concerned, it is not affected in the least. We have no remedy by officials of the Govern- ment; and now the Government propose to put this veto upon the appointment of the county council officers, and the people who look for appointments under the county council will be on their good behaviour so that their names may not become obnoxious to the authorities. The honourable and gallant Member for North Armagh had said that he objected to any of these officers being members of the National League; in his words he would say that all these officers should be loyal men.

COLONEL SAUNDERSON

They ought to be honest men.

MR. DILLON

Does the honourable and gallant Member go so far as to hold that no man is honest in Ireland except he agrees with him in politics? If that is his view his test of an honest man is a man who supports the Unionist Government. That is the root-evil of this system. Whether the Local Government Board exercise this power constantly or not, it is there, and is held in reserve, and is a weapon of corruption. The Government have not attempted to justify it, and I trust that the honourable Member who moved the Amendment will divide the House upon it as a protest.

* SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derby, Ilkeston)

appealed to the right honourable Gentleman, having regard to the fact that it was in the interests of everybody that the Act should work smoothly, to make some concession to the honourable Members. The Government had limited the area of choice in the appointment of officers. He thought if they retained the power that no officer should be dismissed by the county council without the sanction of the Local Government Board they would have quite sufficient authority over the county councils, and at the same time would give to each county council a wider area out of which to select the officer. They would by this course give the man who had any political black mark against his name, or anything that might be used with regard to his public conduct in Ireland, the same chance as other men in securing such appointments, and at the same time retain the power of having a voice in the dismissal or removal of an officer. He believed if the right honourable Gentleman would make that concession he would remove a cause of friction which was likely to arise under the proposed condition of things.

SIR T. ESMONDE

The weak point of the grand jury system is that the grand juries have no control over their county surveyors and other officials. As I understand the clause this evil will now be aggravated. It prescribes that there shall be a considerable number of officials who will be supposed to do the work of the Irish county councils, and at the same time be absolutely beyond their control. This is a most undesirable state of things. As far as I can see, this clause carries out the principle which pervades the whole of the Bill. It puts the county councils in Ireland absolutely at the mercy of the Local Government Board. I think that is a very great mistake. I am perfectly certain that the Irish county councils will be at war with the Local Government Board, and that will not be conducive to harmonious working. The Chief Secretary ought to have more confidence in the local bodies he is creating, and allow them a little more independence; otherwise I for one, in common with other honourable Members who sit on these benches, may feel disposed to reconsider my position with regard to the Bill altogether. Instead of giving local government to the Irish people the Chief Secretary is simply putting them under that of the Local Government Board.

MR. CREAN (Queen's County, Ossory)

I think the Irish county councils ought to be fully trusted with regard to the appointment of their officials. I will give one instance to prove that local bodies in Ireland have not misused that trust in the past. On a recent occasion the Corporation of Cork, of which I was for many years a member, and which is composed or two-thirds Nationalists, appointed a city surveyor. Would it surprise this House to know that they appointed an Englishman and a Protestant to that position? Again, would it surprise this House to know that the harbour board nominated by the corporation appointed a Protestant and an Englishman as their chief engineer? And yet the honourable and gallant Member opposite, impregnated with the bigotry of Ulster, ventured to insinuate that politics would interfere with the appointment of officials. But grand juries, on the other hand, never make appointments outside their own clique and religion.

COLONEL SAUNDERSON

I can give the honourable Gentleman many instances in my own county where Catholics have been appointed cess collectors.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Grand juries never appoint a Catholic to any office.

MR. CREAN

I therefore think, Mr. Lowther, that Nationalist Members have reason to doubt the bonâ fides of any branch of Dublin Castle dealing fairly with anyone not of their own political thinking.

MR. J. SAMUEL (Stockton)

There was one statement made by an honourable Member that should not go unchallenged, and that is the statement that in England the system of the Local Government Board having control over the appointment of the officials of local bodies has worked well. Now, Sir, I venture to say that there is not a board of guardians in this country which would not prefer to have absolute control over its own officials. There is a great difference between the appointment of officials under this system compared with that of the municipal authorities in this country, because the municipal authorities have absolute control over the whole of their officials, unless they apply to receive half the salaries of the medical officer of health or the surveyor from the county council. I understand from the latter part of this section, which speaks of the agricultural grant—the agricultural grant is, I believe, £40,000 for the whole of Ireland—that this grant was transferred to the local taxation account, and then handed over to the county councils. Now, in England, I think in many county councils the whole of the officials are paid out of the local taxation account. In some of our county councils we have not a single case where the officials' salaries come out of the rates. The whole of the money is provided by Parliament out of the local taxation account under the Act of 1888, and the county councils, with the exception of one official, i.e., the clerk of the council, have absolute power in the appointment and dismissal of the whole of the officials. I say, Mr. Lowther, that there is no county council, there is no rural district council, there is no local board that has self-government in the strictest sense of the term unless they have absolute control over their officers. And if these officials are placed under the Local Government Board you must have continuous friction between the Local Government Board on the one hand and the local authorities on the other. I hope my honourable Friend will push this Amendment to a Division, because the principle is one of very great importance, especially in Ireland, and I think that upon this Question you ought to assimilate the law in England to Ireland, and give the Irish county councils the same power that we possess in this country.

MR. DALY

If the right honourable Gentleman can see his way to accept the suggestion that the powers under the section should be limited o five years' duration, I would rather lot proceed to a Division. I think here are a good many officials at present in office who would retire at the end of five years. The honourable and gallant Member for North Armagh has spoken about the introduction of politics into county councils, but let me point out to him the recent conduct of a grand jury in Ireland. At the very last assizes there vas a resolution proposed by the grand jury in the county of Monaghan to levy twopence in the £ on account of two collectors of the honourable and gallant Member's political faith who ran away with £2,000 of the county cess. I hope, in view of this disclosure, the honourable and gallant Member will not cast any suspicions on honourable Members on this side of the House.

Question put— That the words of the sub-section to the word 'he,' in line 42, stand part of the clause.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 138; Noes 76.—(Division List No. 116.)

Amendment proposed— Page 30, line 42, leave out the words 'be appointed.'"—(Mr. J. O'Connor.)

MR. J. O'CONNOR (Wicklow, W.)

I move this Amendment because I think in this Bill the Local Government Board is invested with too much power. As things stand in Ireland at present the Local Government Board has a good deal more power than it ought to have. In every page, in every line of this Bill, the heading is Local Government Board.

MR. M. AUSTIN (Limerick, W.)

I beg to call your attention, Mr. Lowther, to the fact that there are not 40 Members present.

A count was ordered, and when 40 Members appeared,

MR. J. O'CONNOR

I was just saying that I move this Amendment in order that the county council might have the privilege of making their own appointments. You will observe that, according to this clause, the Local Government Board have not only the power to veto appointments but to interfere in the alteration or fixing of salaries. I think that is giving the Local Government Board too much power. You give some reform with one hand and take half of it away with the other. That is usually the case. I think the Attorney General might concede this point in the absence of the Chief Secretary. What I object to is that the Local Government Board should have the veto on these appointments. The Local Government Board is everywhere—on every page, on every line of this Bill. I beg to move this Amendment.

MR. ATKINSON

Gentlemen who are acquainted with the proceedings of grand juries in Ireland cannot for a moment think seriously that the county surveyor would be in an independent position if he were appointed by the county council. What chance would any man who faithfully did his duty have of insisting upon contracts being carried out?

MR. M. HEALY

This only relates to appointments.

MR. ATKINSON

The only cases are those of the county surveyor and secretary, and anyone who knows anything about what grand juries in Ireland are cannot say seriously that, if he did his duty, the county surveyor would have any chance if the Amendment were inserted.

MR. JORDAN

I do not see whiting clause should apply to the secretary. If the county surveyor is protected, his assistants, who will be under him, will be sufficiently protected without this clause. But what we are afraid of is that, in giving these appointments, it is dangerous to let the Local Government Board have the power independent of the county council—that, whereas they might have a certain amount of independence, they will act in such a way as to be offensive to the county council. Now, an officer might if he chose, being appointed by the Local Government Board, wholly independent of the county council, stand up and tell the county council that he refused to assist them—that it was outside the sphere of his duty. I know a case of a few weeks ago in which a gentleman, who was not the secretary of a grand jury, but who was the secretary to commissioners, refused to assist the commissioners in a certain matter, because he said it did not lie within the sphere of his duty. That is the way the Local Government Board officials might act—to defy the county council. The county council would be at the disposal of its officers, instead of the officers being at the disposal of the county council. I regret that the suggestion made on a former Amendment was not adopted—a suggestion to limit this clause to a term of five years.

MR. T. M. HEALY

I suggest to the Government that there is ample protection in the words "and which shall have such qualification." It occurs to me that the Government might give way on the word "appointment." We have had a great many discussions as to safeguards, but if I were asked what could the county council do, I could only say it can raise taxes. The Government must remember that all existing officers are protected. The present officers will certainly live, in the natural course of events, for 15 years, or perhaps 20 years; and therefore we are dealing with a state of things which will only arise when we will probably have passed out of the sphere—will I say, of politics? It seems to me that the Government have adequate protection in the word "qualification," and that they might well leave out the words "be appointed."

MR. MURNAGHAN

Mr. Lowther, I can understand officers being independent of road contractors, but why they should be independent of the county council I do not understand. Does the right honourable Gentleman mean to say that the county council would not make its officers attend to their business? What power will they have to enforce their orders according to the present Bill? They will have no power whatever. Unless these local bodies have the control over their appointments, I do not see how it is possible to get your work properly done. Because, instead of being independent of the county council, they ought to be subject to it. Is it to the Local Government Board they must look for approval? It is a far-off object, and I think it is a wrong course for the Government to pursue. These surveyors get large salaries, and I do not think there would be any desire on the part of the county council to be arbitrary. The Government are taking an unfortunate step, and I am in full agreement with the Amendment.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

The county council is the body that will have the power of making these appointments and the Local Government Board will only have the power of a veto over the action of the county council. The mere fact that such a power is in existence will have an effect on the county councils, and will prevent them appointing men whom they ought not to appoint or dismissing men whom they ought not to dismiss. It will scarcely over be necessary to exercise such a veto; but, as the fact that it is possessed by the Local Government Board will have a beneficial influence, I am prepared to do away with it. I do not think the powers possessed by the Local Government Board are too great. If a county surveyor were to conduct himself towards the county council in opposition to their wishes, I really think honourable Members should give the Local Government Board credit for exercising a certain amount of discretion and common sense in carrying out their duties. I cannot, therefore, accept this Amendment.

Question put.

Amendment negatived without a Division.

Amendment proposed— Page 30, line 43, leave out. 'or.' Page 30, line 43, after 'altered,' Insert, 'or withheld.'"—(Mr. W. E. T. Sharpe.)

* MR. SHARPE (Kensington, N.)

I think that no salary ought to be altered or withheld without reference to the court of appeal, that is the Local Government Board. I think, when you consider the class of officers they are, their stability and dignity should be maintained, and no better way can be provided than by enacting that no interference with the emoluments, whether it be in the nature of fixing or withholding salaries, shall be allowed without the sanction of the Local Government Board. I, therefore, beg leave to move this Amendment.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

These words are absolutely unnecessary.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 31, line 14, leave out from 'council,' to 'all,' in line 15, and insert— So far as respects rural districts, and to the clerk of the council of every county borough and urban county district, so far as respects that borough or district."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

Amendment agreed to, without a Division.

Amendment proposed— Page 31, line 10, at end, insert— And such secretary or town clerk shall receive such additional remuneration in respect of the increase of his duties by reason of the transfer in this sub-section mentioned as the Local Government Board may sanction, such increase not to be less in amount than the amount which would have been receivable by such clerk of the union if such transfer of powers and duties had not been made."—(Mr. M. Healy.)

MR. M. HEALY

The Act imposes a great deal of abstract duties upon the town clerk. He must make a return if called upon to do it, and he has various other duties placed upon him. My own view is that he should have extra remuneration for voters' lists. There is a special payment for juries and voters' lists, which the clerk of the union gets, and in the Acts relating to juries and voters there are provisions for so much per name on the lists. I have not studied them myself, but I apprehend that it is intended that remuneration in this respect should be given to the clerk and the secretary to the grand jury under the Bill. But, at any rate, the town clerks will not like these extra duties cast upon them without any provision being made for payment.

MR. ATKINSON

This does not relate to existing officers.

MR. M. HEALY

If that is so, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 31, line 21, leave out 'Lord Lieutenant,' and insert, 'Local Government Board.'"—(Mr. T. M. Healy.)

MR. T. M. HEALY

The clause reads that an officer— Shall not be appointed or removed, nor shall his salary be fixed or altered, without the concurrence of the Local Government Board. As that is drawn it would include assistant surveyors, because assistant surveyors are mentioned in line 24 of the clause, and therefore I do not see where the Lord Lieutenant is to provide for the additional qualification for the assistant county surveyor when it is the Local Government Board, apparently, which is to provide in future for the qualification as in line 1, page 31, of the Act. Observe its absurdity. You provide by line 24 that the county council May appoint such assistant surveyors and such further officers as they think necessary. In sub-section 4 of the same clause, the Local Government Board insist that these officers Shall have such qualifications as may be prescribed"; and then sub-clause 8 goes on to say— That the Lord Lieutenant may, if he thinks fit, direct the assistant surveyors to be examined and their qualifications certified by the persons who examine. After an explanation from Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, the Amendment, by leave, was withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 31, line 31, after 'borough,' insert— 'And the amount of any such superannuation shall be paid as expenses of the county or district council.' Page 31, line 31, at end, insert, as a new sub-section— 'The law relating to the treasurers of counties and this section shall apply to the county of Dublin in like manner as to any other county.' Page 31, line 31, at end, insert, as a new sub-section— 'Where a county surveyor, or any resident medical superintendent, or assistant medical officer of a lunatic asylum, is appointed by a county council after the passing of this Act, and at the time of such appointment held a like office in another county or lunatic asylum, he shall, upon ceasing to hold office, be entitled, for the purpose of enactments relating to superannuation, to reckon any previous service as county surveyor or as officer of a lunatic asylum which he might have reckoned if his service had been under the appointing council or committee.'"—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

* SIR T. LEA

I beg to move the insertion of the words "or assistant county surveyor." after the word "surveyor" in the first line of the new sub-section. I think a good many grand juries and the new county councillors in Ireland would wish to see some of these gentlemen superannuated. It may very naturally happen that some councils will perhaps want to abolish some of these officials or compel them to remain on under different terms. My proposal would allow a far better arrangement, but we shall not be able to improve it unless a certain number of other officials are superannuated and the benefit is extended to the assistant county surveyors. As it stands it is very unsatisfactory, and I think the right honourable Gentleman might include these words in the new sub-section.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I cannot accept those words.

MR. M. HEALY

Sub-section 10 reads— The enactments relating to the superannuation of officers of boards of guardians shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to officers of county and rural district councils other than the county surveyor, and any officer of a county borough. Does that not entitle him to superannuation on the same terms?

MR. T. M. HEALY

Will the right honourable Gentleman also consider the point which my honourable Friend the Member for St. Stephen's Green Division of Dublin raised, that of two officers, one in the county of Cork and the other an officer in the county of Dublin. I think the assistant secretaries to the grand juries in both these cases should be included as is the case with the secretary. I think it only fair that these two officers should have the protection which this clause gives to the others.

MR. MUKNAGHAN

I hope the Chief Secretary will carefully consider this matter, and not listen to this proposal at all, for it would only make them discontented and increase the taxation of the country. The Chief Secretary could not do a worse thing than at the beginning of local government in Ireland to open up new avenues of expenditure and extravagance, and I hope he will not yield to the proposal of the honourable Baronet, for it will only be met with new proposals on the way, and the Bill would become nothing but a burden to the ratepayers.

* SIR T. LEA

After what has been said I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.)

Supposing one of these officers got promotion, would the right honourable Gentleman cut him out?

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

Yes, I think I should.

MR. JORDAN

The right honourable Gentleman takes power under this clause of permitting county surveyors and other officers to reckon their time served in another county as having been served in the county to which they are transferred. Will the right honourable Gentleman tell me for my information how the two counties will settle the superannuation allowance. Will it be shared in proportion to the time served in each county, and will each county pay a proportionate share of the remuneration.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

No. The superannuation will be charged to the county to which the officer is transferred, and that county takes the risk, and it will be considered by the county at the time of appointment.

MR. M. HEALY

The transfer of officials is a very common thing you will find out. As a rule there is a system of apportionment adopted in England, and ready I think the effect of the right honourable Gentleman's Amendment will be this, that it will prevent any county council from giving the appointment to a properly qualified surveyor.

Question put.

Amendment negatived without a Division.

Amendment proposed— Line 4, after 'asylum,' insert 'or is transferred to a county council by this Act.'"—(Mr. J. H. M. Campbell.)

MR. M. HEALY

On a point of order, Mr. Lowther, may I submit that the Amendment is more relevant to the section dealing with existing officers. It relates to an officer transferable under this Act, and is therefore an existing officer.

MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELL

I submit, Mr. Lowther, that it is perfectly relevant to the Amendment of the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary. It deals with the county surveyor, who is transferred to a fresh county.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

I think the contention of the honourable Member for Cork is right. I do not think this Amendment is in order on this clause.

MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELL

It does not appear to me if it is not in order here that it can be in order later on.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

I think it would be best to raise the question in a separate clause.

Question put.

New sub-section agreed to without a Division.

Amendment proposed— Page 31, line 33, after 'officers,' should be added— Or the powers conferred by any unrepealed Act on the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council or any other Government department in relation to officers."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

MR. DILLON

What are the powers?

MR. M. HEALY

The objection to this Amendment is that there is no schedule of repeals.

MR. DILLON

I do not think it is a right thins to bring in an Amendment of an entirely new character like this.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

If there is any suspicion about it I will give it up.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put— That clause 55 as amended stand part of the Bill.

MR. M. HEALY

said he might just-point out that under the new sub-section there was no power to appoint more than one county surveyor. The section under which it was possible to have more was repealed by the Act. With regard to Cork, one county surveyor was not sufficient, having regard to the large amount of work he had to do, and there was no doubt that the limitation of the power of the county council to appoint only one surveyor was, in his opinion, a great defect.

Clause agreed to.