CLAUSE 44.

HC Deb 20 May 1898 vol 58 cc173-90

Amendment proposed— Page 25, line 11, leave out 'and in the case of Cork to divide the same into two ridings.'"—(Mr. M. Healy.)

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I accept the Amendment of the honourable Gentleman, although, as I understand, it is the Gentleman's opinion that the county should be divided.

SIR R. PENROSE FITZGERALD

I do not know that it is necessary for me to say anything now, since the Amendment is agreed to.

CAPTAIN DONELAN (Cork, E.)

I do not think that a single public body in the whole of the East Riding of Cork has passed or adopted any resolution upon this matter. So far as I am aware, they have not done so. All the resolutions have come from the West Riding of the county. Now, I do not desire in any way to oppose this Amendment, but I really do think that there is a good deal to be said for the provision in this clause with, reference to the period of six months being allowed to elapse, in order that information may be gathered as to the desire of the people upon this point. There are one or two questions which I should like to ask the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary before I made up my mind upon this Amendment. For instance, there are 17 poor-law unions in the city of Cork, the chairman of each of which will, as I understand it, be entitled, ex-officio, to a seat on the city councils. That would give 17 ex-officio members to the county council of Cork. The right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary upon this matter gave it as his opinion that there would be about 30 members in the county council. Now the reason I ask this question is, if Cork is represented by only 30 county councillors, the chairmen of the rural poor-law unions would always be a majority. Now, I think that is a point for consideration. I quite agree that Cork is the natural centre for the county councils to meet in, and I think, if the county were divided into two counties, that in all probability Cork would be selected by both counties as the centre in which, the councils should meet; but I do think, so far as my constituency goes, at all events, there is a very strong opinion upon this subject. There is a very considerable difference of opinion upon this subject in the different ridings. I have not received any resolutions from the East Riding upon the subject, but from the West Riding I have. I am quite sure it is the desire of the West Riding that the county should be one.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

The county council of Cork would, of course, extend beyond 30 in number. I gave that merely as a conjecture of what the average number of members would be of the county councils of Ireland. So far as the county of Cork is concerned, all I can say is, that no question of principle is involved, but representations have reached me, and they seem to be greatly in favour of the county being treated as a whole.

MR. W. ABRAHAM (Cork, N.E.)

The right honourable Gentleman has stated that he has received a great many representations in this matter from Cork. What I should very much like to hear is who are the public bodies who have put forward those representations. So far as I have ascertained, we have received representations from three poor-law unions out of the 17, one from one board of town commissioners, one from the harbour commissioners, and from other boards, who call themselves presentment associations. I should like the right honourable Gentleman to explain to the Committee what the principal bodies are who gave these opinions, because I, as representing one in the eastern portion of the county, can state that, in my belief, there is only one opinion among them, and that is that the county should be divided into two. I do not wish to trespass on the time of the Committee further, but I do say this: if a preponderating majority is in favour of the preserving of Cork as a whole, then do it; but, so far as the constituency I represent is concerned, the opinion is the other way about. I think we have not got sufficient evidence on the subject. The right honourable Gentleman says he accepts this Amendment. I hope he does not intend to do so without any explanations as to what public bodies have made these representations.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I could not answer that question without examining my papers, but what I have to say is, that this particular question has excited a great deal of interest, and I think I was fully entitled to draw the conclusion I did, from the fact that I have not had one single request to do otherwise. I have not carefully looked into the matter and ascertained from what part of Cork these various representations came, but if the honourable Gentleman thinks that East Cork is hardly treated, I think he can test the matter between now and the Report stage.

MR. W. ABRAHAM (Cork, N.E.)

But the right honourable Gentleman has taken care to say in this Bill, "within six months of the passing of this Act, may alter for the purposes of the election of such council the boundaries of any existing judicial county, and, in the case of Cork, divide the same into two ridings." With regard to the division of Cork, I want to know what figures he has got which he has told the Committee to-night he has not taken the trouble to analyse. The right honourable Gentleman surely might, without any harm to the Bill, take care to exercise the provision he has put in the Bill. Instead of accepting this Amendment, he might adhere to the text of his Bill. Take the six months and let the local bodies analyse the feeling and opinion of the county upon this question, and, having ascertained what the public feeling is on the matter, let the right honourable Gentleman act. If the division of Cork is found to be desired, let it be divided. But is it perfectly fair to do so without analysing these representations which have been made to the right honourable Gentleman? I declare that those expressions of opinion are machined, and do not represent the true opinion of the county. I say the right honourable Gentleman has taken no pains to ascertain what was the opinion of a certain part of Cork, and if he accepts this Amendment now he is doing so without having ascertained the true opinion of the county on the matter.

MR. M. HEALY

I rise to move this Amendment. I think my honourable Friends behind me are under a misapprehension as to the objects that the Government had in view in introducing this proposal into their Bill, that the county councils might divide the county of Cork. It was put into the Bill because it was conceded that the West Riding of Cork was entitled to have a county council of its own. It was proposed that the Local Government Board might divide the county if it is divided. The only object in making the division is the cost. The West Riding of Cork is so remote from the East Riding, and it might desire to have a sort of Home Rule, and set up a county council of its own. Well, naturally, under those circumstances, all the expressions of opinion would come from the West Riding, because it is the West Riding which is most interested. Every public body in the West Riding is of this opinion. My honourable Friend says the opinion is machined; if that is so, I am not aware of how it has been machined. When the figures were first investigated it was suggested that the West Riding would be hampered by any division at all, but that if any division took place it ought to be upon the basis of equal rating. When the Chief Secretary announced publicly that if there was a division it would be upon the lines of the ridings, and not upon equal ratings, public opinion of the West Riding declared against the division. Everybody in the county of Cork knows it would be impossible to make a division upon those lines. You could make no divisions in the county Cork which would not make it extremely inconvenient for the remote parts of the districts. From Skibbereen, or Bantry, and all that district, it would be extremely inconvenient to make an effective representation, if not impossible. The county has, at an enormous expense, erected a building for the use of the county council of the whole county, and if the county is now divided all that expense will have to be incurred again. No one who has examined the matter and gone into the figures can come to the conclusion that the West Riding would be at all benefited by the division; and I do say where the West Riding is unanimously opposed to the proposal that the Government are reasonably safe in accepting this Amendment. I, personally, have not the slightest interest in what is done in this matter, but I do think that the interests of the district should be considered in a matter of this kind.

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

The opinion has not been well developed in the different districts of the county of Cork. The opinion in the East Riding is, no doubt, in favour of the proposal of the Bill, but obviously the best way out of the difficulty would be that the Members representing the county of Cork should come together and discuss this matter fully, in all its bearings, and then communicate their views upon the subject to the right honourable Gentleman. But, incontestably, if there is a well-founded opinion in the county of Cork that the proposal of the Bill should not be adopted, and there is a strong opinion in favour of the Amendment, then the Amendment should be accepted.

MR. W. ABRAHAM (Cork, N.E.)

I should like to point out to the Chief Secretary that public opinion in the West Riding was unanimously in favour of a division of the county, provided that the county could be divided on the basis of equal rating. It was only in reply to the suggestion that the county should be divided on the present lines of the ridings that I stated the West Riding was opposed to it. The East Riding is double the size, and certainly double the valuation, of the West Riding. The East Riding is £700 on the valuation; the West Riding is £300; and certainly, under the circumstances, the East Riding is entitled to a more weighty consideration than the West Riding; but as the West Riding is practically unanimous upon this subject, though I feel we should prefer a division of the county, I do not myself propose to stand in the way of this Amendment.

DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)

I must say, with all due deference to the opinions which have been expressed by honourable Members of this House upon this subject, that, from the information which has come to me from the county of Cork, with reference to the division of the county, it appears to me that the opinions of both Nationalists and Conservatives, and others belonging to the county, is that there should be only one county of Cork, that there should be only one centre, and only one method of dealing with matters material to the county. The centre naturally should be the city of Cork, and I think some little time should be given to the consideration of this matter.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 25, line 23, leave out 'or any Order in Council made under Part 6 of this Act.'"—(Mr. M. Healy.)

MR. M. HEALY

I think the right honourable Gentleman will see the connection between this and another Amendment I put on the Paper, but what I have to say now is this, that I should be quite satisfied to leave the clause as it stands as regards boundaries if the right honourable Gentleman will omit these words. I think he has not fully appreciated the effect which those words if retained will have upon Orders in Council made under Part 6, the whole purpose of which would be destroyed.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I should like to adopt the suggestion, because I think it is desirable that some general principle should be laid down, and if the honourable Member will leave this question to me I will see what is the best way of giving effect to what is the intention of the Bill on this matter.

MR. M. HEALY

I think the right honourable Gentleman might make an addition to the Order in Council which would give county boroughs the power of extending their boundaries so as to get the benefit of the Act.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

Yes, if there is nothing to prevent it.

MR. M. HEALY

On that understanding, I will ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 25, line 28, leave out sub-section (b).

* MR. DILLON

I do not find that the Government in the Act absolutely tie the hands of the Local Government Board with regard to this question of unions being divided, and if my Amendment is accepted it will not in the least degree compel the Local Government Board to divide unions between more than two counties if they do not wish to do so. But representations have been made to me that in some cases it would be desirable to divide certain unions between more than two counties, and that it would be better in that respect to have no cast-iron rule. Of course, I do not now wish to obtain the judgment of the Committee on the merits of that question; all I seek now is that the right honourable Gentleman should leave the Local Government Board with their hands free to make the division as they may think best after full inquiry. The inquiries which the right honourable Gentleman has been making have caused the greatest possible anxiety and alarm. The whole question will have to be considered with the utmost care, and I think full opportunity ought to be given to the inhabitants and ratepayers of a district which it is proposed to transfer from one union or county to another to state their views fully before anything is done.

* MR. JORDAN (Fermanagh, S.)

I do not propose to say more than a few words in support of the Amendment of my honourable Friend the Member for Mayo. We have one division in Tyrone, eight in Cavan, and the remainder in Fermanagh, and I know that none of the divisions in Tyrone or Cavan wish to be disconnected from the divisions in Fermanagh. On that ground I protest against the right honourable Gentleman leaving the matter entirely to the decision of the Local Government Board. Only yesterday evening I wrote a letter to the Secretary to the Local Government Board in relation to the same subject, and the inhabitants of the division in county Cavan got up a memorial, and sent it to the Local Government Board praying not to be severed from the union of the county Fermanagh. I hope, therefore, that the right honourable Gentleman will accept this Amendment.

MR. CREAN (Queen's County, Ossory)

I have an Amendment down at line 29, proposing to leave out "two" and insert "three," but I have been requested not to press it now. I asked the right honourable Gentleman a question as to whether he had received a memorial requesting him to enable unions to remain as they are. Under the clause it will be in the power of the Local Government Board to divide them into two if they so think fit, contrary to their expressed wish, but I do not conceive that the right honourable Gentleman can have much objection to accept the Amendment now proposed. I know perfectly well that if the arrangements now proposed are carried out, as may be seen by reference to the union map in the Tea Room, a great number of my constituents will be very much inconvenienced by being put away from the central meeting-place of the guardians of the union. They told me it would be almost impossible for them to give regular attendance to their duties if that were done. This Amendment will be only extending the powers of the Local Government Board so as to enable them to meet the views of particular unions, and I hope the right honourable Gentleman will accept it.

MR. T. M. HEALY

This is a matter of great interest, and anyone who has considered it for several years past will not at all wonder at the decision at which the Government have arrived. But at the same time one cannot ignore the fact that there is intense local feeling upon the subject. In some cases the proposals of the Local Government Board might involve not only changing a division from one county to another, but from one province to another. I see that a Sligo union might be brought into Donegal. It is not only that there might be considerable feeling, both racial and local, but there are financial questions of importance involved. The Amendment of the honourable Gentleman the Member for Mayo would not, I think, in any way restrict the powers of the Local Government Board. But, while I think the Government will do well to accept this Amendment, I should not at all find fault, from the point of view of the central authorities, if some such proposal as that in the Bill were carried. The present system is most inconvenient, and it is most desirable that some approximation towards the system suggested in the Bill should be brought about. But really, Sir, I think the opposition which this scheme has undoubtedly aroused has been generated because of the natural distrust, of the localities of the body which is to do this work. In regard to England, observe the anxiety and care which the Government have shown. Before the Act of 1888 was brought forward they passed an Act in 1887, appointing a Royal Commission, consisting of a number of people of great dignity and importance, to consider these boundary questions. Then, again, when the Bill of 1888 was passed, another Commission, composed of men of considerable weight and experience, was appointed, in order to deal with questions of adjustment, whereas these matters had to be left under the control of the Local Government Board, two out of the three members of which body are at the present moment absolutely new to its work. I do not wish to say anything more about that, and nobody will think I am hinting at any job, but I must express profound regret as to the disappearance of Sir George Morris from the Local Government Board. He was a man of great common sense, and he understood the prejudices of the people, as it is necessary to do in these cases. He did not pretend to govern the country without understanding the prejudices of the people. I do not know the gentleman who took his place, but I can speak with approval of the new appointment made by the right honourable Gentleman, which I believe will be received with satisfaction. Therefore we do not complain of the composition of the Local Government Board, as it is now constituted, but we cannot ignore the fact that two out of the three members are new men, neither can we ignore the fact that it is not to be strengthened, so far as we know, in any way from outside. Now, I think it would be a reasonable thing if the Government were to announce that some gentleman connected with this House—I do not care what Party he might belong to—should have something to say in these matters. There are questions of considerable nicety to be dealt with, and I do think that the Local Government Board might be assisted, as assessors, by some Members, drawn from all Parties, in this House, to do the work in an honorary capacity, the paid men doing the drudgery, leaving to what I may call the honorary members outside questions of principle where local feeling arose, and of which there might thus be brought about considerable abatement. The Government, I think, on the whole would lose nothing by accepting this Amendment. They could, in spite of its acceptance, if they thought fit, carry out departmentally what they wish now to carry out legislatively. There is undoubtedly a strong feeling about the Bill, and the Government would do well, in view of local prejudices, to consider whether they could not meet them by appointing some persons in an honorary capacity to assist the Local Government Board.

SIR T. ESMONDE

I think the Government will act wisely in accepting this Amendment. In different localities strong feeling is likely to arise about the alteration of boundaries. There may be some unions in which certain divisions would be satisfied to join other unions, but, on the other hand, there are divisions which would view such a change with dissatisfaction. My honourable Friend the Member for Mayo proposes to leave the matter more open, and I think the Government might, without great risk, agree to his proposal.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I do not say that I am not able to accept the Amendment. I think that in two or three cases, probably not more, it might be more convenient to adopt a threefold rather than a twofold arrangement. I must confess that I think simplification of areas is a very important object, but it might be carried to an extent that would prevent what might be very valuable arrangements. I would rather the honourable Member would not press his Amendment. I can assure him I am prepared to consider the matter, but, at the same time, it might be awkward to take out of the Bill the power of the Local Government Board to divide unions between two instead of three counties.

* MR. DILLON

My point is that if the Bill remains as it now stands, unions could not in any case be divided between more than two counties, and the right honourable Gentleman admits that, for reasons present to his own mind, in two or three cases, at any rate, it would be found more convenient to make the division between three counties. All I ask him to do is to leave himself free to make the change if he should think it best to do so.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

Without wishing to contest what the honourable Member has said, I do not think he understands my point, which is that if I simply accepted the Amendment there would be nothing but divisions between three counties under the provision of the Bill. I would, therefore, rather leave some direction, at all events, in the Bill to indicate what should be done. The honourable Member says, leave the Local Government Board free to make what arrangements they think best, but in the absence of any directions great pressure may be brought to bear upon them to make arrangements which it would not be wise to make, and it is desirable that their hands should be strengthened to resist pressure to multiply divisions.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Are not you the Local Governnent Board? You do not want your hands strengthened.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

The presence of this or some similar provision in the Bill against multiplying divisions would be useful in strengthening their hands should pressure be brought to bear. However, if the honourable Gentleman will be satisfied with what I say, I will further consider the matter before the Report, in order to make up my mind definitely as to the cases in which such a division would be desirable, and if I think it really is desirable in certain cases, I will accept this Amendment, or some similar Amendment, to make a threefold division possible.

* MR. DILLON

I will be content with that, but I hope the right honourable Gentleman will place something on the Paper expressing his views. I now understand his object, but I think it will be universally admitted that the statement he has made shows that in some cases it would be undesirable to put a cast-iron limitation on the action of the Board. I will not press my Amendment now, but I expect the right honourable Gentleman will put upon the Paper some proposal before the Report stage, to show whether he will carry out my proposal. I should like to say a word or two, before I withdraw the Amendment, on the general question of boundaries, because some of us who sit on these Benches are in a position of difficulty in the matter. I myself have been troubled because of the proposal made to two divisions in my constituency, with, as it were, a pistol placed at their heads. They are put in the dilemma of either joining the Swineford Union, or leaving the county of Mayo and joining Roscommon. They do not want to do that. They belong to county Mayo in the Parliamentary sense, and they belong to Roscommon in the county council sense. Well, now, there may be, from the point of view of the right honourable Gentleman, no justification for the prejudices of these local people, but there is something more than prejudice in the matter. These two divisions are up in arms against the change, and there is something more than a sentimental objection to it. They have a serious objection to sending their representatives into a strange council, where they are likely to form a small and despised faction, whose voice would not be likely to be listened to. That may appear to some honourable Gentlemen a rather too far-fetched objection, but I can assure them that to those who go much about amongst the people and understand the condition of county society, it is by no means a fanciful objection, for such a compulsory change might be very cruel. Therefore, what I want to impress upon the right honourable Gentleman is this: I should like him before the Bill passes to give us some indication of what precautions are to be taken to ascertain the wishes of the people in a division before forcing it to remove to another county or union, and what weight is to be given to the unanimous feeling of the body of the ratepayers. Although I fully sympathise with the object of the right honourable Gentleman as to simplification, still I think you will meet with great difficulties and create great discontent unless you move slowly and cautiously in the matter.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

Perhaps I may be allowed to state that this question of boundaries has been anxiously considered by the Government, and in every case we have tried to ascertain what was the local feeling. As to the suggestion of the honourable and learned Member for North Louth, that it might be possible, in the event of dissatisfaction with a decision, to give an appeal to the Local Government Board with the assistance of assessors, I do not wish to offer any opinion now, but I shall certainly consider all the suggestions that have been made.

MR. M. AUSTIN (Limerick, W.)

In my own constituency there are four electoral divisions, which it is proposed to attach permanently to the Listowel Union, and I wish to call attention to the fact that the distance from Listowel is very considerable, and to suggest also that the feelings of those four electoral divisions should be taken into consideration. A meeting was held a fortnight ago, at which resolutions were adopted protesting against alteration in this direction. The decision on a former occasion was, unfortunately, come to rather hastily, and the people of the district had no opportunity of expressing an opinion at the time, but they have that opportunity now.

MR. CREAN

In my opinion, Mr. Lowther, strange results will follow if this clause is retained in the Bill in its present form, especially in the union of which Kilkenny, Tipperary, and Waterford form part. The Local Government Board have addressed a letter to the board of guardians, stating that inasmuch as this Bill provides that no union shall be divided between more than two counties, it will be necessary to transfer certain portions of the union, but this is provided for in such a manner as to involve intersection of boundaries, and more than intersection, with the result that when jurors are summoned to assizes or to sessions they will, in certain cases, have to travel distances of from 20 to 30 Irish miles, to the great prejudice of legal proceedings. The board of guardians of the Carrick-on-Suir Union have unanimously passed a resolution, which has been sent to the Local Government Board, asking the latter body not to pass the scheme in that form, which, however, will be absolutely necessary if this clause is carried as it stands.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I fear that in a matter of this sort there is scarcely a case in which difficulties cannot be made apparent with the assistance of the map, but I do recognise that there are special cases to which it is necessary to give consideration, and I hope honourable Gentlemen will be satisfied with the assurance that such consideration shall be given.

* MR. JORDAN

Will the right honourable Gentleman permit me to make a suggestion? Before the Local Government Board arrive at a decision, will it not be better to hold an inquiry on the spot, where the parties interested may be heard? That, I think, may save a good deal of trouble hereafter.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I see no objection to that, in doubtful cases.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. DALY (Monaghan, S.)

I move an Amendment that a union shall extend over one county. I think this would save a good deal of amalgamation, which would otherwise take place.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

We have for the last half-hour been discussing Amendments on this point, and I am forced to admit there seems to be sufficient doubt about the matter to make me look into it.

MR. DALY

I do not wish to press this to a division, but in the county I represent there is a good deal of soreness about this business, and I have been inundated with petitions on the subject from county Monaghan.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— Page 25, line 29, after 'counties,' insert 'or two counties and one county borough.'"—(Mr. Vesey Knox.)

MR. VESEY KNOX

There is a particular case I would like to call attention to—that of the union of Derry, which will form part of two counties and one county borough. It is of a convenient size, and the city of Derry will be in the centre. As the Bill stands, it will be necessary to take either the Derry part of the union or the Donegal part and throw it into another union. I quite admit that where parts of unions are not sufficiently large in themselves, there is a strong case for amalgamation and alteration of boundaries, but in this case the part of the union of the county of Derry is, I submit, large enough, and so is the part of the county of Donegal, and I can see no obstacle to these parts forming rural district councils. I have no information as to what it is proposed to do in this particular case, for it rather seems to have beer, overlooked; but it certainly seems to me that a county borough is for these purposes somewhat different from an ordinary county, and I venture to press this matter on the attention of the Chief Secretary.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I fear that if I were to adopt the suggestion of the honourable Member for East Mayo, or to make one of my own, it would not meet the proposal of this Amendment.

MR. VESEY KNOX

I am not going to press this to a division, but it would be an inconceivable hardship if the proposal I apprehend were carried into effect, and I cannot think such a course is contemplated as that either the Derry or the Donegal part of the union shall be amalgamated with any other union. I hope the Chief Secretary will be able to give a clearer answer on this question, because this is a far different case from those which have been spoken of, of a union forming more than two rural counties. If I withdraw the Amendment I hope the right honourable Gentleman will give an assurance that the case will be dealt with.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

My strong impression is that the case of this union was not considered by us when we used this form of words. I press the right honourable Gentleman to withdraw his Amendment, in order that we may consider the whole case.

MR. VESEY KNOX

I beg to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. A. O'CONNOR (Donegal)

I beg to point out the word "area" appears to be hardly sufficient in this clause. There are places in which the proportions of unions vary considerably in point of size, and are of but little consequence, and I beg to move an Amendment to insert after the word "size," the words "and rateable value."

MR. VESEY KNOX

I think that, as far as valuation goes, the Local Government Board might be of opinion that they would be able to form separate districts, and I do not think it is desirable to put in a word which might hinder the Local Government Board. My view is that the poorer a place is the harder it is for the people to send their district councillors to distant places. In the union I have in my mind, in West Cavan, the people are very poor—in fact, it ought to be scheduled as a congested district—and to send them to a distant place to transact their local business, would be a very great hardship. It must be remembered that in Ireland there will be no parish councils; the district councils will be the authorities for all local purposes, including the village pump. I, therefore, think the Amendment might well be held over.

MR. CREAN

There is nothing in the clause which prescribes in any way any rules which the Local Government Board will follow. I think some regulation should be made as to where rural district councils shall or shall not be set up, and I think also the English precedent might well be followed.

MR. A. O'CONNOR

I have heard my honourable and learned Friend the Member for Derry city, and, while holding my own opinion, I ask leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I am rather sorry the honourable Gentleman has withdrawn his Amendment, because I think some other points should be considered besides size.

On the return of the CHAIRMAN, after the usual interval,

Amendment proposed— Page 26, line 1, leave out subsection 5."—(Mr. M. Healy.)

MR. M. HEALY

It appears to me that the words inserted in clause 18 of the Bill, which enables an electoral division, when divided into wards, to combine for the purpose of election, are inconsistent with the clause which is before us. Clause 18, section 4, is most necessary in view of the fact that some electoral divisions in Irish constituencies are small, and it would be most unfair to give them on the district council a representation equal to that of a larger area.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I will accept the Amendment, subject to the reservation that, as the matter is complicated, it may be necessary to reconsider it.

MR. M. HEALY

I thank you. I will mention it on the Report stage.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— Page 26, line 5, add as a new sub-section— If the Local Government Board amalgamate two unions they may, after communication with the county council and rural district councils concerned, either amalgamate the rural districts in the same county which are comprised in the amalgamated unions, or direct that those districts shall continue as separate rural districts, and in either case may make such arrangements as may be necessary for protecting the interests of the officers of the district councils holding office at the time of the amalgamation, and for that purpose the Union Officers (Ireland) Act, 1885, shall apply to officers of the district councils in like manner as it applies to the officers of boards of guardians."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 44 as amended added to the Bill.