CLAUSE 21. (Hansard, 12 May 1898)

§ MR. LOUGH
The words which I propose to omit enable the district council to select its vice-chairman from outside. I do not object, of course, to there being a vice-chairman, but I decidedly think he should be a member of the council. I do not wish to go the length of saying that the district council may not elect its chairman from outside, but I want to secure that, at any rate, the vice-chairman should be elected from amongst the councillors.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
If the Amendment of the honourable Member were accepted, there would have to be a consequential Amendment. As things are, if a vice-chairman is elected from outside he should be considered as an additional councillor.

§ MR. LUTTRELL (Devon, Tavistock)
The object of the Amendment which stands in my name is to prevent persons sitting upon the district councils who are not elected. This clause provides that a chairman and a vice-chairman may be chosen from outside the council; and, in addition, by sub-section (b), the district council can— besides the chairman and vice-chairman, choose from persons qualified to be councillors 1131 of the district not more than two persons who shall be additional councillors during the term of office of the council. Therefore, you may have four district councillors chosen from the outside. I gathered from the right honourable Gentleman, when he replied to my honourable Friend, that he was prepared to accept this Amendment standing in my name by the addition of certain words. I am willing to accept that, but I think it is only fair that I should state that I cannot take it as affecting the principle which influenced me in moving my Amendment. My object in moving my Amendment is to make the district councils thoroughly representative of the districts; and in order to do that I think that they should only be composed of members directly chosen and elected by the people. I think the universal opinion on both sides of the House upon this subject is that the district councils should be made as representative as possible. We are all agreed upon that. Now, here is an opportunity of doing so; and I sincerely hope that Her Majesty's Government will not only see their way to accept this Amendment, for which I thank them, but that also, at a later stage, by adding to the Bill another Amendment, they will not allow any person who is not elected to the district council to be chosen as either chairman or vice-chairman.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I am prepared to accept the honourable Member's Amendment on the distinct understanding that in sub-section (b) shall be substituted the word "three" for "two," so that the councils may choose from persons qualified to be councillors of the district not more than three persons, who should be additional councillors.

§ MR. DILLON
This Amendment has to a great extent arisen out of the argument of the right honourable Gentleman as to population. I would only urge upon the Chief Secretary that, as regards the rural district councils, he ought not to base his argument upon population. That argument has reference to small towns only, and inasmuch as the size of the population of the rural districts is left entirely in the hands of the Local Government Board, and that they can easily arrange to suit themselves, I think it is very invidious for one district council to have this privilege and another not.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I would suggest that this whole matter should be put off for the present in order that we may bring in a new clause dealing with the whole subject. In considering this point we have to consider, not merely the position of the chairman of the district councils, but also that of the chairmen of the urban councils. The honourable Member for Mayo was rather thinking that the Government had in their minds the case of the very small urban districts. When I spoke first I said that we should have to insert the number of the population. He says it is now for the Local Government Board to fix the area of a rural district. That is not altogether so. The Local Government Board, in fixing the area of the rural district, have to take into consideration the difficulties of so arranging it. In carrying it out it would be practically impossible not, in some cases, to make rural districts, which would be much smaller than the average. The population I had in my mind was 5,000. I find since then that the average population will be nearly 9,000.

§ MR. DILLON
As the Government has practically accepted this Amendment I will not take up the time of the 1133 Committee. I will only ask him to go a little further in the new clause which he proposes to bring forward, and I suggest to him that "5,000" will exclude a great number of the districts.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
All towns under that clause will be entitled to have a town justice, and we are considering the advisability of choosing who shall be the town justices.