CLAUSE 8. (Hansard, 2 May 1898)

MR. T. M. HEALY
, in moving the Amendment standing in the name of the honourable Member for West Islington, namely— Page 3, line 41, leave out 'one_ half of,' said he regarded this clause as one of the most important in the Bill. He objected that one half of the expense of the maintenance, enlargement, or improvement of any main road should be levied on the administrative county, and the other half upon the county districts in which the road was situated. All the charges for the great main roads of a county should be placed upon the county rates. This clause was of enormous importance, and ought to be considered specially by a Select Committee. At present it was very unsatisfactory to know that the persons who would have to determine as to what were main roads, and as to the charges upon them, would be the county councils, who could not be regarded as bodies likely to deal with the matter impartially.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
said it was his intention, on Clause 22, to introduce Amendments which would meet the objections of the honourable Gentleman. One Amendment would provide that the council of any urban district might undertake the entire management of the main roads in the district, the expenses of which were at present leviable on the county at large, upon such terms as might be agreed upon between the parties, and approved by the Local Government Board. That would give power to the urban districts to take, over the management of the main roads.

§ SIR J. COLOMB
Will the Bill, as proposed now to be amended, interfere with the difference between urban districts 69 and county districts, which was decided upon a long Debate?

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
The effect of the second part of that Amendment will be to preserve that arrangement. With regard to what fell from the honourable and learned Gentleman the Member for North Louth as to Belfast, I might say that any obligations under which Belfast and Derry now stand to the surrounding country will be adjusted under the Act. They will not, by merely being constituted county boroughs, be freed from any of their present obligations.

MR. T. M. HEALY
said the matter was very obscure. He held that a main road, other than a main road in a borough or town, ought to be maintained wholly at the expense of the county authority. It was absurd that the cost of maintaining the roads which were the real arteries of traffic, such as the road running from Dublin to Howth, should not be borne by the county at large.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
It will be a district charge.

MR. T. M. HEALY
My suggestion is that the charges for the great main roads should be county charges. Under the old, antiquated system, when a mail cart travelled upon a road, that made it a main road, which was absurd. You now propose to abolish the mail cart distinction, but you leave the question of half-charge where it was.

§ LORD E. FITZMAURICE
I think the Committee will not complain if opportunity is taken on this. Amendment to raise a discussion upon certain important matters connected with the question of the roads. In my opinion, it may, perhaps, result in the saving of a considerable portion of time if a few observations, at any rate, are made upon this question, which is not only an important one, but I might almost say a dangerous one. In the first place I would like to say, without any desire to enlarge upon the subject, but much rather with a view to future legislation, that I regret that the Government have not thought fit to adopt the suggestion of the honourable Member for Louth, and throw the whole of the expense of the main roads upon the 70 county. I may remind the Committee, perhaps, of what happened in England and also in Scotland, I believe, but certainly in England. An Act was passed by Mr. Sclater-Booth, when President of the Local Government Board, to the effect that one-half of the main road charges should be thrown, upon the county, and the other half upon the local sanitary authorities, which were practically the same as the urban districts are now. No doubt that was a considerable step in advance for the year 1878; but it became quite clear after ten years' working that it was far better to throw the whole charge of the main roads upon the county fund, and that step was taken in the Act of 1888, and the year after it was done in Scotland by an analogous Measure. No doubt there may exist reasons in regard to Ireland which may have induced the right honourable Gentleman to adopt the same rather slow procedure which we had in England, and thus confer upon Ireland, or rather inflict upon Ireland, a period of ten years during which there is to be this division of charge. I rather regret that the right honourable Gentleman has not had the courage of the opinion of his English colleagues, and that he has not assimilated the law between Ireland and England as the law was assimilated between England and Scotland in regard to charge. Outside this matter there is a second point, and it is one to which I really desire to ask the most earnest attention of the Chief Secretary and his legal advisers. We in England have had something like nine years' litigation between the county councils and the urban councils upon the point which the honourable Member for Louth has brought before the attention of the House. Even now some of these points are not yet settled. Others are only imperfectly settled, and in the course of the discussions which have taken place in the courts of law very severe language has been used by at least one of the judges in regard to the bad drafting of the clauses in the English Act on the relations between the urban councils and the county councils. I do not wish to weary the Committee by a long statement of what these points are, nor do I want to try and inflict my own individual opinion upon the Committee, but I do hope that by the time we reach the 71 Amendment, which the Chief Secretary has put down he and his legal advisers will do their best to make themselves acquainted with the English decisions, as far as they touch the question in Ireland, and will attempt to save the Irish county councils and urban district councils that very long litigation which the English county councils have been subjected to by the clause which was inserted in Committee in the English Act. The honourable Member for South Dublin has placed an Amendment on the Paper, which he has informed me he now intends to withdraw, which proposed to include the identical words which were in the English Act. I am very glad to hear that he intends so doing, because it was upon these very words that this protracted and expensive litigation arose. In the first place, there was a point as to whether a footway was or was not part of the road. I do not mean an ordinary gravel footpath only, but a pavement—even an as phalted pavement, or other pavement of the most expensive kind. That was a matter in which thousands of pounds were involved. The whole question of the entire paving of large towns through which main roads ran was involved, and the urban councils went to law with the county councils upon the point as to whether the county councils should pay for the maintenance of such paving, and beat them. I do not think it was at all understood in this House at the time that that was going to be the law. That was the result of a test case, which was taken up to the House of Lords, and decided as I have described; but even when the highest court in the land had decided that the county councils were to maintain footways, whether of expensive stone or common gravel, other difficult points remained which have not yet been settled. I beg the Committee to understand that I only mention these things to show how important they are, and with a view to saving Irish county councils, if possible, from the enormous expense and worrying litigation to which the English county councils have been subjected. As I was saying, there still remained other points. After it was decided that the county councils were to bear the paving expenses, there remained unsettled the question as to 72 whether the decision meant the whole of the expense, or part of it; and to this day there exist the widest differences of practice. Only this morning I was reading an account of what was done in the county of Derry. There they pay one-half of the expense. In my own county, we pay the whole, whilst others pay two-thirds and others three-fourths. Then there is the point, where the urban council has contracted a loan, as to whether the county council must repay the instalments. A decision has been given on that point of law, and it may be appealed against any day; but at present the law is believed to be that the county council can be called upon to repay the instalments of a loan from year to year. Then there is a question with regard to the interest on Loans, upon which litigation is pending at this moment. That is a very important point, in regard to which thousands of pounds are involved. Here, at last, I think the county council have got the best of it. These are practical points. I do not want to weary the Committee with regard to them, but I hope I have shown the Committee that these are exceedingly important matters, and that the Chief Secretary and his colleagues will be doing a great service to the county councils and the ratepayers of Ireland generally if they will take these matters into their serious consideration, with a view to seeing whether the Irish ratepayers cannot be saved from wasting enormous sums of money in costly litigation, which has been the unfortunate lot of the county councils of England. This litigation has lasted now for a period of nine years, and is not yet concluded. My object in putting down an Amendment to the Amendment proposed by the honourable Member for South Dublin was because in his Amendment he followed the clause in the English Act word by word. Now, on the clause in the English Act, besides those I have mentioned, another very important point has been raised, which has never yet got into a court of law, but I hold in my hand a copy of counsel's opinion on the matter, and that opinion is the best that can be obtained. That question is this—and it would arise upon the very words that the honourable Member wished to introduce—if an urban 73 council wishes to widen a street, and buys a house and land, and raises a loan for the sole purpose of that extension, can they not claim that extension as a matter of right as an improvement of the main road? The word "enlargement" is left out of the English Act. The county council has therefore refused to pay, and the best opinion that can be had is that the county council are right. The urban councils are very far from pleased with that opinion, and in all probability they will go to law upon the point. I trust that I have shown the Committee that these are important points of law which may involve the Irish county council in expensive litigation, and, what is worse, may lead to a great deal of ill-feeling and bad blood. I would therefore most strongly urge upon the Government that they should give their earnest attention to the points I have mentioned, and which I have only mentioned with a view of endeavouring to improve the Bill and render its working as smooth as possible.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I entirely appreciate the views which have been expressed by the noble Lord. But with regard to the question of throwing upon the county the whole of the charge of the main roads with which he began his speech, I would remind him that the circumstances in Ireland are not the same as they are in England and Scotland. The main roads in England and Scotland were invariably turnpike roads in the first instance. That system of turnpike roads has never been adopted in Ireland, and in this Bill we are simply proposing to maintain the existing system, under which part of the expense of maintaining these main roads is to be borne by the barony and the other part by the county council. There were reasons why we should not follow in the Irish Bill the precedent set in England and Scotland. Then as regards some of these legal points, I have had some of them before me. I know very well that there are difficult points involved, but under the provisions of our Bill these questions are hardly likely to arise, because the effect of the Amendment of which I have had copies handed round will be practically that the urban district councils will take over the whole management and maintenance of the roads. The question 74 of pavement, the question of enlargement, the question of improvement are questions which I shall be prepared to consider. It appears to me that the easiest way of avoiding the expensive litigation referred to by the noble Lord would be to make each urban council take over the roads which will be given to it by this Amendment, either upon terms agreed upon to the county council, or upon terms fixed by the Local Government Board. The urban district council will, as a matter of fact, now find it better to take over the improvement and enlargement of urban roads.

§ MR. LOUGH
It seems to me that it would be desirable if we could avoid some of the larger questions which have been raised, and also the question of towns, which has been referred to. My intention was only to refer to the roads in country districts in Ireland, and to suggest that it would be much more convenient if the cost of maintaining them were levied over the whole county, rather than that there should be an account as to each road between the urban district council and the county council. The only argument that the Chief Secretary has given to the Committee is that the case in Ireland is not exactly the same as it is in England, where the roads were turnpike roads. That argument only carries us a very short way. I should like the Chief Secretary to take into consideration the Irish circumstances, and if he does that I think he will see that there are a great many reasons for adopting the suggestion that no division of charges should take place. If my Amendment were adopted, it would require one or two subsequent Amendments. I think the Amendment which the right honourable Gentleman has suggested with regard to the towns rather supports my argument. He says that there is an advantage in allowing the urban districts to acquire the full control of the roads if they desire to do so. Very well, then, there is an exactly similar advantage in allowing the county council to have full control of the main roads in rural districts if they desire to do so. Rather than have a variety of authorities contesting as to what should be charged, and how it should be charged, I suggest that the full control should be given to 75 the county council, and that the county council shall be obliged to levy a full rate.

§ MR. G. BALFOUR
I suggest a division of charges.

§ MR. LOUGH
That is my point. I think that this division of charges will be extremely inconvenient, because many difficult questions will arise which would be entirely avoided if the simple method were adopted of allowing the council to have full control. In the first place, there will be different calculations as to how much should be paid between the district council and the county council of a particular district, and as to whether the county council is spending too much upon a particular road. I think that strife of this kind should be avoided, and it would be a great deal better that the whole matter should be left to the care of the county council. There is another point in connection with this matter which I would ask the Chief Secretary to consider, which appeals to me strongly. A road in a county may be of greater use to a district which it does not pass through than to some other district which it does pass through. Take the case of a road passing a quarry or a mine in a particular district, two miles from the main road, and the mineral has to be brought out on to the main road and carried a long way; supposing that the quarry happened to be in a different district from the one in which the main road lay. Now, that district would suffer a hardship, it would be paying half the cost of maintaining a road which mainly benefited a neighbouring district which was not obliged to contribute. There you would have a bone of contention thrust upon the county. I do not think that the Chief Secretary has given a single argument as to why we should not adopt the simple expedient of having only one authority in the matter, and thus avoid all divisions and complications. I am sure he intends giving the matter every consideration, but the Bill would be greatly simplified if provision were made to bring the law in Ireland into line with the law in England.

§ COLONEL WARING
I think we might let this matter remain as it is. For the last 60 years we have been carrying on the business of the Committee in this 76 divided manner, and with these divided accounts, and no complication has ever arisen, and there have been no disputes. I think it would be infinitely better and much less costly to allow the state of affairs which has gone on so long and so well to continue.

§ SIR T. ESMONDE
I rather agree with the honourable and gallant Member that our present system of divided accounts has worked well in the past, and I do not see why we should change it.

§ MR. TULLY
We have heard a great deal of the interests of townsmen and the interests of the countymen, but I know that whenever a town is cut off from the county the town takes care to make a very good bargain. I know of a case where a town cut itself out of a barony, and it has only to pay for four or five miles of road. The valuation of the town and barony is about £10,000, of which the barony is £6,000, but the barony has 20 to 30 miles of road to maintain at £6,000 compared with the four or five miles which the town has to maintain out of its £4,000. There is the case of Athlone, which got cut off from the county of Roscommon, and by so doing put up the rates of the county by a penny or twopence in the pound. It was obliged by this House to make a contribution of £100 a year towards the county rates. I think there is a great deal to be said in the case of a poor peasant who lives on the mountain side, who keeps, perhaps, a donkey, a cow, and a pig, and who has to pay for the upkeep of the roads used by the rich people of the towns, and in some cases roads over which traction engines go, which do not benefit him one bit. I think there should be some understanding as to what the effect of the Bill will be as regards the urban sanitary authorities. The Chief Secretary said that a number of the urban sanitary authorities would proceed immediately to maintain the roads inside their township. That would be a very good bargain for the towns, but I should like to know how it will affect the countrymen?

§ MR. P. A. M'HUGH (Leitrim, N.)
I should like to ask the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary, or the Attorney General, how this clause will affect a town situated as Sligo is situated. Sligo passed in this 77 House in 1869 a local Act, called the Sligo Borough Improvement Act, under the provisions of which it was agreed that Sligo should be liable for a certain proportion of the county-at-large charges. That proportion was not a definite proportion, it was a variable proportion, varying according to the valuation of the county and the borough. At the present time in the borough of Sligo we are maintaining all our roads. We have our own surveyor, we pay all our officers, and, notwithstanding that fact, we are now obliged, under the provisions of the Act I have mentioned, to pay a certain proportion of the county-at-large charges. I think that the terms contained in the Act of 1869 were agreed to by the representatives of the borough because it was necessary to do something to induce the grand jury to allow the Act to pass. We think that, while we are maintaining all our roads, and paying all our officers, we should not be called upon to pay for the county roads, whether main roads or not. I should like, before this Amendment is disposed of, to hear from the Chief Secretary or the Attorney General in what position Sligo will find itself when this clause is in operation.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I am afraid, Mr. Lowther, that this discussion is drifting into a very desultory one, and I hope that the discussion will endeavour to confine itself to the particular Amendment before us. In answer to the honourable Member who has just spoken, I think he is not aware that certain Amendments have been put down to Clause 22. If Sligo has made such an arrangement as he informs us, that arrangement will be preserved in its entirety.

§ MR. KNOX
I venture to support this Amendment on its merits. The honourable and gallant Member opposite thought it better that things should remain as they were, better altogether from the question as between county and town, and looking only at the rural area, without taking the town into account. But I think there is a strong case for spreading the whole cost of the principal roads of the county over the county at large. I think, if the honourable Member will consider the circumstances of Ireland, the case must inevitably appear much stronger. What happens in the counties 78 is this: the parts of the county which are more prosperous — the more level parts of the county—are served by railways. The main roads are of smaller importance, and are much less used for through traffic from other districts. In the poorer parts, the more mountainous parts, especially in Ulster, there are main roads of the very greatest importance in the whole county, and these roads run through poor places, and they are maintained now half at the expense of the district, although they are in all essential particulars of much wider importance. I think it would be a most desirable thing to spread the cost of the charges for the maintenance of these roads over the county at large, as has been done in Scotland and England. I do not think that some of the questions referred to by the noble Lord will arise under this Bill. He is, perhaps, aware that the system in Ireland is entirely different to what it is in England and Scotland. In England what happens is, that in most counties the main roads, if paid for by the county, are repaired yearly by contract by the district authorities; in Ireland every road will be maintained by the county, and the only question is as to who shall pay for it.

§ LORD E. FITZMAURICE
I only alluded to the urban councils.

§ MR. KNOX
The questions are somewhat different, though I admit, that there are many points in which there has been a good deal of litigation under the English Act which we should do well to pay attention to. The offer made by the Chief Secretary that the charge for the widening of the road should be taken as part of the maintenance is a valuable suggestion, which I hope he will see his way in carrying out. Then, when you come to the question between the rural and urban districts, there are in Ireland a number of local Acts under which the various local authorities have each made their own particular bargain. In some cases a local authority has made a good bargain, whilst in others it has made a bad bargain for itself owing to the changes which have been brought about. Sometimes a town has gone down, whilst others have increased beyond all expectation. 79 I do think now that there is a very strong case for revising all those cases, not by a Provisional Order, but by widening and extending the powers of adjustment upon a broader basis of equity by this Bill as it stands. I do not know how far the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary will see his way to deal with the question, but I do think there is very strong ground for revising all these local Acts on the broad ground of equity, if not of law. I imagine that the chief object of the Committee will be to see that the urban districts shall neither gain nor lose anything by this Bill. Now, I think that a very much wider principle ought to be adopted, and that a new and fair adjustment ought to be made. It is absurd to pay such reverence and respect to arrangements made in such a way as these were. I therefore hope that the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary, if he cannot see his way to accept the Amendment of my honourable Friend, will see his way to consider this point, and say whether there is not a good deal to be said in favour of it when we get to the same stage in the Bill upon the Report. Upon the question of the towns, I venture to suggest to the right honourable Gentleman that the best way to deal with the matter is to leave the towns altogether outside, and to enforce some sort of reasonable contribution from them.

MR. T. HEALY
The honourable Gentleman should remember that under the Act of 1871, as I understand, there was power to absolutely sever the towns from the counties, and in the case of Wexford the borough of Wexford was absolutely divorced from the county of Wexford, and the borough is responsible for no "county at large" rates. That was the situation in 1871, and so it remained until 1878, when you repealed what you had done in 1871, which was in itself a retrograde movement. Now, what I do press upon the Government is this: in my opinion there should be some sort of elastic clause which would not bind the county in a cast-iron way for all time. You must remember before this Bill is passed that if we pass this Measure we shall be another 60 years, if we should be unhappily tied to this 80 Parliament, before this matter will again come up for consideration. It is rather a strong measure to pass a Bill like this, and make no inquiry as to the administration and order. The question of responsibility changes so, and it is one that from time to time ought to be recognised, and it is positively absurd for the honourable Gentleman to say we have had no trouble for 60 years, and, therefore, let these things go on as before. The people have not been heard because they had no voice; they were gagged by the grand juries. It seems to me that there ought to be some elastic clause to deal with these matters, some power to change them, and we ought not to be bound in this rigid manner.

§ MR. LOUGH
I would ask the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary to consider this matter a little further; I. myself, attach a great deal of importance to it.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I am bound to say that my own judgment is against this Amendment.

MR. T. M. HEALY
moved upon Clause 8, page 4, line 4, after "barony" insert "or urban district." This is a point which the Government propose to meet by their own Clause 22. The Bill provides, "every road the maintenance of which at the passing of this Act is levied partly off the county at large and partly off any barony," but it does not touch the towns at all.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I should suggest, as an Amendment, to leave out "partly off any barony" if the honourable Gentleman will withdraw his Amendment.

§ MR. M. HEALY
moved upon Clause 8, page 4, line 5, to leave out "until it ceases so to be as hereinafter provided." I have moved this Amendment because I consider the proportion of main roads is absurdly small if you consider the mileage throughout the country, and I do not think in this Bill we ought to do anything to assist the county councils to diminish them. Now, I have taken 81 the trouble to obtain the figures with regard to the county of Cork, and I find from them that there are some 5,000 miles of roads in that county, and of that 5,000 miles only 200 are county at large roads. That has arisen by the system of dealing with the matter as a question of mail roads under the Grand Juries Act. Before the Grand Juries Act was passed I have no doubt that the proportion of mail roads to the urban roads was very much greater, and there are many which ought to so exist now which were urban roads, but made continuations of the mail roads by the mails being carried over them. But with the introduction of railways the result has been that as the railways were extended and the mails came to be carried by them, mile after mile of the old mail roads were struck off and reduced to the status of urban roads. In Ireland now the proportion of mail or main roads is absolutely absurd. If you take a map of the county of Cork, and consider the number of towns, and then consider the number of roads between those towns which should all be in the nature of main roads, you will see how absurd it is. There is not more than 10 per cent.—not more than 5 per cent. of the mileage of the roads which are at present main roads. Now what I object to is, that when we transfer the jurisdiction from the grand juries to the county councils, the county councils shall have power to strike off the list as they please any of those roads which are now main roads. I think their power ought to be in an entirely different direction. The more main roads you have in a country the better it is for the people. We are by this Bill getting rid of the absurd principle of district rating, the result of which is to make the poorer district bear the whole burden of its own poverty, instead of getting assistance, as they should have done; we are now getting rid of that absurd principle, and shall obtain that assistance from the richer districts, and, that being so, my opinion as to these main roads is that it ought not to be put into the power of the county councils to decrease the mileage of the main roads as they at present exist. In my opinion, the state of things at present is such that the mileage of 82 main roads is reduced to such an extent that it must be practically impossible to cut off a single mile further from them; but I certainly do think that it ought not to be put in the power of the county councils to do so. My Amendment is to secure that any road which is now a main road should continue, under the new order of things, to be a main road, and that it should not be struck off the list and reduced to the status of an urban road.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS
The Amendment is: "Clause 8, page 4, line 5, leave out 'until it ceases to be as hereinafter provided.'"

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
The effect of that will be to place upon the county councils the principle—"Once a main road always main road." I doubt whether that is advisable, because the changes with regard to railway accommodation have been so great that what at one time was a very important main road is not now of any importance whatever, and I think it should, under such circumstances, be reduced to the position of a district road.

§ MR. VESEY KNOX
I venture to put this to the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary. I believe, in the north of Ireland generally, it is of vital importance, and especially in those counties where the greater part of the district is well-to-do, and the part which is not is a minority having different views. With regard to county Down, I know that in that county there are a considerable number of roads, particularly in the south part of the county, which now come under this provision. Now I feel morally certain that when the county council of county Down come to map out the county again they will say that certain part of the county have got more main roads than another part; there are too many, and we must cut off so much and throw them upon the district; and, although I do not say so, it may very well be that one of the reasons why they will do so is because that part of the county is very differently situated from other parts which are much richer. I say that there would be in those parts of the north of Ireland, where the people of the older race have been driven into the mountainous districts, a great danger of 83 such action being taken by the county councils, which will, perhaps, take a broader view than the grand juries. Now one of the places I allude to is in the lower part of the county, where there are very few railways, and where, of a necessity, the mails are carried by road, and if the provision is not made by the insertion of these words which my honourable Friend wishes to insert, it will be in the power of the county council of county Down to close the roads to the poor people in the mountainous districts in the southern part of the county, and I am sure that that was never intended. I do not think the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary intends that to be the effect of his Bill.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
They can appeal.

§ MR. VESEY KNOX
I am quite aware that the people will have a right of appeal, but then money is not always ready at hand for that purpose; and then, again, the appeal must be by the district council, and the district council does not always represent every part of the district which is suffering. There is a very important question, too, from another point of view—from the point of view of the tourist traffic in Ireland. I believe honourable Members on both sides of the House are anxious to develop in every possible manner the tourist traffic in Ireland; and from that point of view alone it is extremely important that we should have as many main roads as possible, because we may naturally expect that there will be more expenditure in that direction than in any other; therefore I entirely agree with the Amendment which my honourable Friend proposes. I believe it is perfectly true that, as in England, the county council will not be able to get rid of a main road without the consent of the district council. I know that that is so in England, because I know the London County Council is extremely anxious to get rid of some of their main roads, but, owing to the district council withholding their consent, they are unable to do so.

§ MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILL
I generally agree with my honourable Friends the 84 Members for Londonderry City and Cork City, but I regret that upon this Amendment it is not in my power to agree with them. I think it would be extremely unfortunate to stereotype, as it were, every main road in Ireland. It appears to be feared that there will be some abuses of their powers by the county councils, but I do not at all apprehend anything of the sort. But, even if there be such a fear, I think that this Bill will be fully and sufficiently guarded by the powers given under it to the district councils. I see that Sub-section 5 gives the right of appeal to the districts, and I think that is a sufficient protection.

§ MR. H. C. PLUNKETT (Dublin County, S.)
It seems to me that the point of view put before the Committee by the honourable Member for Londonderry as to the tourist traffic in Ireland rather tells against him. It appears to me that, if he desires to have new roads made in Ireland, it would be very unwise indeed to establish such a principle as—"Once a main road always a main road." In my opinion the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary is quite right in not laving down an unalterable principle at this time, when we all know that a complete revolution in the method of locomotion upon the highways by motor-cars, etc., may be expected to take place at a very early date. Therefore. I think it is very wise to leave the county councils a large discretion in this matter to deal with the roads as altered circumstances may render necessary.

§ SIR T. G. ESMONDE
I think I should be very strongly opposed to any interference of any kind with the powers of the county councils in this matter. I think they ought to be left to say what will be main roads and what will not.

§ MR. TULLY
I think it would be expedient if the county councils had not the power. I know something about the roads of Ireland; and I know some of the mail roads are not generally used. In the county of Roscommon, for instance, where the coal mines have recently been re-opened, the roads leading to them are not generally used; the district is a very poor one, and the taxes there are very heavy. I think this is 85 a useful provision in this Bill if that power should be given. The county councils should not have the power to say what a road should be.

§ MR. J. HERBERT ROBERTSON (Hackney, S.)
I am in sympathy with the honourable Member for Cork on this Amendment. We have not got the trouble in the south-east which they have around Londonderry, but we have some country districts which are sparsely populated. I see the force of what the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary says—that the county councils must have some power to make existing main roads cease to be main roads; but observe what this clause says, and what is provides: "That any road not mentioned in such declaration shall cease to be a main road." It appears to me that this clause is altogether wrongly framed. The roads appear to have to be made main roads by the county council. They ought to be left main roads unless the county councils specifically declare that they shall not be so. Instead of the county councils having first to say they shall be main roads, they ought to be left main roads until the county councils should determine the contrary.

§ MR. M. HEALY
My Amendment was simply to prevent the total cost of the roads, which hitherto has been charged upon the county, being thrown upon the districts. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

§ MR. J. J. SHEE (Waterford, W.)
Let me, in putting this Amendment, call the attention of the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the question of the navigation trackways in Ireland, to which no reference whatever is made in this Bill. I desire to call the attention of the Government to this question of navigation trackways, in respect to which certain difficulties have arisen. There is no means under the Legislature at present to have obstructions to navigation trackways removed. If they were declared to be public roads even, and not main roads, 86 jurisdiction would be given under the ordinary law of the country for the removal of obstructions. The question was recently raised with reference to a navigation trackway bordering the river Suir. The police commenced a prosecution on the subject, and attempted to remove an obstruction, and they were successful in so far that the magistrates convicted; but upon an application for a writ of certiorari, the Court of Queen's Bench decided that the magistrates had no jurisdiction in the matter. Therefore this matter with regard to the navigation trackways is a matter of great importance, and I think they should be declared to be public, at the least, roads.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
With regard to the difficulty which has just been placed before the Committee, it has not been, so far as I am aware, considered by the Government; but I do not think the honourable Member's Amendment would be a good way of accomplishing the object the honourable Gentleman has in view. I am quite ready to consider whether it is not desirable to insert words in the Bill which will give such powers over the navigation trackways as are desired.

MR. T. HEALY
I think it is only right to say, with regard to this prosecution, that, as it was solely a prosecution for the benefit of the whole of the people of the country, it is, in my opinion, a very great pity that it was not upheld by the Attorney General.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
expressed his willingness to consider whether it was not desirable to insert words in the Bill, giving such powers over the navigation trackways as might be desired.

§ MR. M. HEALY
moved to insert in the third sub-section, after the provision giving power to the county council to make a general declaration defining the particular roads in the county which shall be main roads, a stipulation that the declaration shall be a provisional declaration.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
said that the suggestion was decidedly an improvement on the procedure proposed by the Bill, and would tend to prevent any possible friction between county councils 87 and district councils. It would be best, however, to insert the proposal as a new sub-section at the end of sub-section 4 of the clause.

§ MR. HERBERT ROBERTSON
moved to omit from the sub-section the words— And any road not mentioned in such declaration shall cease to be a main road.

§ MR. J. SAMUEL (Stockton)
said he thought there was great force in the Amendment. The county councils ought not to have power, by the simple omission of a road, in the declaration to make it cease to be a main road.

§ MR. A. O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)
said that the matter was one which might be of very great interest and importance to an exceedingly poor district.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
agreed that it was desirable to omit the words, with a view to the subsequent Amendment of the honourable and learned Member for Cork, which he had already accepted. He was prepared to accept the Amendment.

§ MR. M. HEALY
moved to add the following sub-section after sub-section 4— A declaration shall at first be a provisional declaration, and shall be communicated by the county council to each district council in the county in the prescribed manner. After the prescribed time, and after considering any representations which may meantime have been submitted, either by any district council or by any person or persons claiming to be interested, the county council shall take the said provisional declaration into consideration, and may adopt same, either in its original form or after modifying it by including in it any additional roads.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
said he would accept the Amendment if the honourable Member would omit the words at the end, "by including it in any additional roads," and insert in their place, "either by way of exclusion or inclusion of roads."

§ MR. M. HEALY
expressed his willingness to accept those words in place of those he had suggested.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
Of course, there is a certain amount in what the honourable Member says, but I do not see any way to obviate the difficulty. 88 However, I am willing to accept the Amendment if the honourable Member omits the words at the end, "by including in it any additional roads," and substitute "either by way of exclusion or inclusion of roads."

§ MR. MAURICE HEALY
I assent to that.

§ MR. G. BALFOUR
Sir, the next Amendment I have to make is in Clause viii, page 4, line 19, to leave out the words "give not less than sir months' notice of a proposed declaration," in order to insert the words "forthwith communicate the new declaration as finally adopted."

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I have also to move to leave out in line 23 the words "those six," in order to insert the word "two." The term of six months originally proposed was suggested under the impression that there would be no inconvenience in making the declaration known in the period to the Local Government Board, but now that time has been given for the town and district councils to come to an arrangement, six months appears to be too long, and I propose to substitute two months instead.

§ MR. M. HEALY
Would the right honourable Gentleman consent to insert "within the prescribed time" instead of his proposed "two months"?

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I can have no objection to that suggestion.

§ MR. M. HEALY
I wish now, Sir, to move an Amendment at line 33, merely to prevent any doubt arising such as I have previously suggested.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
Before that is done, Sir, I have an Amendment to move which I mentioned earlier in the evening. I shall not, of course, move it as it stands on the Paper, but in order to make the matter clear I propose to move 89 to insert the words, after line 33, "This sub-section shall apply to so much of any mail or other road as is situate within an urban county district." I move that Amendment because I admit that there is some obscurity in the clause as already passed as to whether it does or does not apply.

§ MR. M. HEALY
It occurs to me that the Amendment which the right honourable Gentleman has now moved is inconsistent with an Amendment previously accepted on the other part of the clause, line 4, after "barony."

§ MR. G. BALFOUR
No, Sir, I am moving to leave out words inconsistent with it.

§ MR. M. HEALY
Oh, yes, quite right; I beg pardon.

§ MR. G. BALFOUR
I do not know that it is necessary to insert this Amendment, and it is only for the sake of extra caution that I move this Amendment to prevent ambiguity.

§ MR. M. HEALY
I move to insert, at the end of the clause, "A suspended declaration which afterwards becomes operative shall operate as from the date when originally made." This Amendment is intended to remove any difficulty that may arise as to the chargeability on these two boards during the period when the declaration is suspended. I think the Bill should make the matter clear, lest there may be a dispute as to whether for a period of some months the charge of maintaining the mail road should be on the county or the district council. My own view is that it is necessary to make the declaration operative from the date at which it was originally made, because from that date the five years' term originally runs; and, therefore, that being so, it would be undesirable to have one particular road chargeable from a later date than the one in the five years run, lest it should throw the whole arrangement out of gear.

§ MR. G. BALFOUR
Yes, Sir, I think the Amendment is quite right, but I would suggest that there should be 90 appended to it, "any later date fixed by the Local Government Board on an appeal," for it is just possible that there might be a later period running not actually from the date when the declaration was made. I hope the honourable Member will accept such a proviso.

§ MR. M. HEALY
I have no objection to it, but it occurs to me that it would be a convenient thing to have the five years run the same for all, and that even when the Local Government Board made a declaration on appeal that declaration should go back to the original beginning of the five years' term. However, as the right honourable Gentleman desires it, I will accept the words he proposes.

§ MR. MAURICE HEALY
said: I beg to move as an Amendment to add— (7)Nothing in this section shall be held to prevent a greater proportion than one-half of the cost of the construction, repair, or maintenance of any bridge from being charged on any county.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I think this Amendment is one which we can accept, if the honourable Member will allow me to add— Or at any later date which may be fixed by the Local Government Board on an appeal.

§ MR. MAURICE HEALY
I accept that arrangement, and, under the circumstances, withdraw the Amendment.

§ MR. T. J. CONDON (Tipperary, E.)
, had given notice of the following Amendment— Any declaration or declarations made under the provisions of this section shall not increase the incidence of any charge in any urban district for which provision was otherwise made by law and in force at the passing of this Act. He said: I understand that this Amendment has already been covered by one accepted by the Government, and I therefore, beg to withdraw it.

§ MR. CONDON
had also given notice of the following Amendment as to Clause 8, page 4, line 33, to add, at end— Nothing in this section shall alter the existing jurisdiction, power, and authority of the Corporation of Clonmel with respect to any roads, bridges, footpaths, or other public works within the district of such Corporation. 91 He said: I understand the Government are going to move an Amendment which will meet the point I have in view, and therefore, it is unnecessary for me to move it.

§ LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE (Wiltshire, Cricklade)
, said: I beg to move as an Amendment to add— The county council may, if they think fit, contribute towards the costs of the maintenance, repair, improvement, and enlargement of any road, highway, or public footpath in any county, although the same is not a main road. This is a very simple matter. There may be cases in which a county council, while unwilling to make a road a main road, may feel, in regard to improvements, a desire to contribute towards its maintenance. I therefore hope the right honourable Gentleman will see his way to accept the Amendment.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
It seems to me that if this power should be given it will be possible for a county council to over-ride the previous enactments of the clause, and would interfere with the financial arrangements of the Bill.

§ MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)
I hope the right honourable Gentleman will accept the Amendment. It seems to me very unlikely that the county councils would be extravagant. The procedure introduced by the Amendment simply leaves it open to the county council to make a contribution, if, in their opinion, it would enable some poor districts to adequately maintain its roads. There are districts where this would be a great convenience, and I therefore trust the right honourable Gentleman will accept the Amendment.

§ COLONEL WARING (Down, N.)
I hope the right honourable Gentleman will not accept this Amendment. The permission would undoubtedly be used for the purpose of subsidising roads in the immediate neighbourhood of the county towns, as gentlemen living in distant parts of the county would not be so regular in attendance at the council meetings as those living in the immediate neighbourhood. I think it is better to stick to the original words of the Bill.

§ MR. T. LOUGH (Islington, W.)
I hope the right honourable Gentleman will give consideration to the last words of the Amendment—namely, "a public footpath 92 in any county." A footpath might be made in a remote part of a county, which might assist in the development of the tourist traffic, and yet be in a situation in which it would be unlikely that the district council would undertake the expense of making it. I would therefore appeal to the right honourable Gentleman to accept the words of the noble Lord. The objection urged has reference to main roads, but in the concluding words of the proposed Amendment main roads are expressly excluded. The point is not main roads at all. The point is to secure the provision of footpaths in mountainous districts where the authorities will not make them, but where, if made, they would be a distinct encouragement to tourists. The honourable and gallant Member who has just sat down has suggested that the Amendment would be used for the sake of throwing on the country at large the cost of the repair of the roads in the immediate neighbourhood of county towns. I think that is extremely unlikely, because all the roads near a town would be main roads. At any rate, there would be more main roads there than in the places to which I have alluded. Therefore, for the sake of developing the tourist traffic, by making these footpaths, and enabling the county council to make a contribution, where it may be necessary, towards them, I would press upon the right honourable Gentleman the desirability of considering the Amendment.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
It is perfectly open to the district council to make such footpaths. To give the county council this power would make it possible for them to evade all the precautions introduced in the earlier part of the clause. Moreover, if this power is only to be used in the way of contribution, the district council will, in any case, have to initiate the road.

§ MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILL
I think the Amendment is a most valuable one. It is taken from the English Act, and I understand that those who are well acquainted with the working of the English Act assert that it has worked admirably, and that there has been no attempt to abuse it at all, either on the part of the county council or the district 93 council. I do not think there is any fear of the county council, in matters of this kind, taking work upon its own shoulders which ought to be discharged by the district council. I am speaking with an experience of some years, and I assure the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary that if this Amendment is inserted it will not in the slightest degree prejudice what ought to be the legitimate work of the district council.

§ MR. J. JORDAN (Fermanagh, S.)
This is a most valuable Amendment. It will enable poor and mountainous districts to make roads when such an undertaking would be too heavy without assistance from the county council.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
May I point out that the Amendment does not give any such power?

§ MR. JORDAN
I thought it did; but roads such as I have referred to would be most valuable in enabling poor people to get their produce to the markets. They cannot do that unless they have the roads, and they cannot get the roads unless the county council gives some assistance. I move, in line 2, after the word "the" to insert the word "construction."

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
If the word "construction" is added, that will be a departure from the English model.

§ LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE
I am quite willing to accept the Amendment to my Amendment, and to agree to insert the word "construct," but I think the words of the Engish Act are quite sufficient. The insertion of the word would not, however, endanger the earlier part of the clause. If there had been any chance of that I would have been the last person to accept the addition of the word which the honourable Member for Fermanagh has proposed.

§ MR. DENIS KILBRIDE (Galway, N.)
I desire to support the Amendment. It will operate very beneficially in mountainous districts, especially in the west of Ireland. In many cases the roads are kept in a bad state of repair because of the poverty of the particular districts in 94 which the roads are situated, and the grand juries and the county surveyor are not anxious to spend large sums of money in keeping them in proper repair. But it is not the people who inhabit these districts who mainly use these roads, or for whose accommodation they were first made. These roads were made mainly for the accommodation of the people who live in the lowlands, but resort to the bogs in the mountains for their year's fuel. As the Bill now stands, the cost of the maintenance of these important roads is still thrown upon these poor districts. I would ask the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary to accept the Amendment. By so doing these important roads will be kept in a proper state of repair. They cannot be considered main roads, but they are as important to the people as main roads.

§ MR. JAMES P. FARRELL (Cavan, W.)
I beg to support the Amendment, and I hope the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary will alter his opinion about it. It is more important than it looks. It is merely permissive, and not arbitrary; and, therefore, the right honourable Gentleman would run no risks in accepting it.

§ MR. JAMES O'CONNOR (Wicklow, W.)
The Amendment which the noble Lord has moved would affect the county I represent very materially. Wicklow is one of the most mountainous counties in Ireland, and one of the first which tourists from England and from the Continent touch when they visit the country. If the Amendment of the honourable Member for the Cricklade Division were embodied in the Bill, it would, I am certain, be of very great value to the county of Wicklow. I suggest that the honourable Member for Fermanagh should withdraw his Amendment to insert the word "construction," and take a Division on the Amendment of the noble Lord as it stands. If adopted, it would have very useful results over many parts of Ireland—in Kerry, Donegal, Cork, and Wicklow.

§ MR. VESEY KNOX
It is a most extraordinary fact that, so far as I know, there is no sort of authority in Ireland whose duty it is to repair the smaller roads. In France there are communal roads, and it is the 95 same in every other country in the world; but in Ireland, unless a road is a county road, it is nobody's road, and is repaired by nobody. Even in a county there are a great many roads which are repaired by nobody, and when a bridge falls down—as sometimes happens—it may not be repaired for years. There is no authority at present to do this. The county council and the district council say they have no authority to spend any money upon a road of that kind unless they make it a county road and take upon themselves the obligation of repairing it for all time. I think it might be desirable that, in certain cases, a sum of money should be granted, for instance, to repair the effects of an extraordinary flood, without taking the road over as a regular main road. Pending such consideration, I believe it will be a most useful thing if the noble Lord's Amendment is accepted, to repair such damage as I have suggested, and occasionally to repair those by-roads when taking upon themselves for ever the obligation of maintenance.