MERCHANT SHIPPING (MERCANTILE MARINE FUND) [EXPENSES].

HC Deb 24 March 1898 vol 55 cc832-5

Resolution— That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of all expenses now charged on and payable out of the Mercantile Marine Fund, except those relating to lighthouses, buoys, and beacons, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law with regard to the provision for the payment of certain expenses under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and with regard to the levying of light dues."—(Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

MR. J. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

There is a question which I desire to address to the President of the Board of Trade, in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in regard to this matter. The question is this, whether the House by passing this Resolution now, does not tie its hands absolutely and finally with regard to the expenses relating to lighthouses, buoys, and beacons. Does this Resolution prevent the Houses from passing any Amendment upon the Bill when it comes downstairs from the Grand Committee on Trade?

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. CHARLES T. RITCHIE,) Croydon

No, it does not do that. It is simply a Resolution.

MR. J. HERBERT LEWIS

The right hon. Gentleman is aware that a great question has been raised in reference to this Bill by the shipping community of the United Kingdom, and that question is whether, as a matter of fact, these dues are not to be abolished altogether, and I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that any Amendment to that effect will not be shut out by the adoption of the Resolution now under discussion.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE

Certainly it would not be shut out. The House discussed that question the other day on the Second Reading and decided against that proposition. The Bill does not provide for that, and we do not ask for it, because the Government are not prepared to do it, and the House has agreed upon that point.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

Then the right hon. Gentleman says "No." Unless this resolution is made wider it will not be competent for any Member to move the inclusion of any public vote or to reduce the public vote. These subscriptions refer to expenses incurred in relation to Colonial lights on the coast of Morocco. These expenses are on public votes and this Resolution and the Bill propose to exclude them. Now, the object of many hon. Members is that they should not be so excluded, consequently I take it that I am right in my conclusion that if the Resolution is carried as it is now drawn it will not be competent to make a Motion. There is another point to which I attach great importance. It is very unfortunate that by the forms of this House we shall really be prevented from discussing a part of this Bill, because it will be impossible to discuss it when we come into Committee in the usual way. On page 6, for instance, there are examples from the charge of the new rates of light dues. Of course, these examples include some of Her Majesty's ships. Now, there are a great many of us who desire to move in that matter in Committee, and to discuss the exemption of Her Majesty's ships and ships belonging to foreign Governments, but we could not possibly—I think I am right in saying it—move the Motion for the exemption of Her Majesty's ships, because we shall have no right to make a Motion to that effect. The result of that is that unless we can discuss the whole question of Her Majesty's ships on this Motion we cannot discuss it at all, although it is in this Bill. As regards foreign ships we may think that they ought to be, but we are cut off from all discussion of this question, whether it should be omitted or retained in the Bill. That, Sir, is a very considerable inconvenience, and I do not quite know how otherwise I can, in the face of this Resolution—

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

This Resolution does not refer to these dues.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

Yes, that is so, but I am afraid that I have not made my point quite clear. The Resolution only refers to the relief of the Mercantile Marine from certain charges, as a public charge. What I should wish to say is that the Resolution if passed in this way precludes us from discussing matters on page 2, and we cannot move to omit, I take it, from the Bill the expenses of certain lighthouses and other matters.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

I have heard the argument of the hon. Gentleman upon this point, and I see no reason why he should not move such an Amendment in Committee.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

That entirely satisfies me on section 2, subsection 3 and 5, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will remember that. As to the Motion on page 6, the inconvenience remains, and naturally must remain, but we shall perhaps be able to get some charitable consideration from the right hon. Gentleman in the course of the Committee in regard to that point.

Resolution to be reported to-morrow.