HC Deb 21 March 1898 vol 55 cc410-7

I beg to move that the several stages of the Local Government (Ireland) Bill have precedence of all orders of the day and notices of Motion on every day for which the Bill is appointed.

MR W. ALLEN (Newcastle-under-Lyme)

I have an Amendment down on the Paper to omit the Wednesdays on which the Miners' Eight Hours Bill and the Mines Regulation Bill are down for Second Reading. The former is a Bill which possesses very great interest for a large section of the community. I think, if the First Lord of the Treasury will give us some assurance that he will not put down the Irish Local Government Bill for that day or for the day on which the Mines Regulation Bill is to be taken it would be satisfactory—at any rate, as far as I am concerned. I have had representations made to me, and many Members are very anxious that they should again have the opportunity of considering this Bill. There is, too, a Bill down for next Wednesday, which is of great interest to Nonconformists, relating to registrars. This has for a long time been felt to be a Measure of the greatest importance, and I think perhaps the First Lord of the Treasury might give us some assurance that that day also will not be taken. I should have included it in the Amendment on the Paper had I not believed that the Bill might have been read a second time on that date. I object to this Motion of the First Lord of the Treasury for another reason. It allows the Government to pick and choose exactly what days they will deprive private Members of. If there is a Measure put down by their own side that they think is of interest to a section of their own Party they need not take the day put down for that Measure, and they can leave it alone, but if the Motion is put down by an hon. Member on this side they can cut out that day if they think the Measure would prejudice their interests in the constituencies. I think we ought to have some assurance which Wednesday they will leave us, so that we shall know what Measures are likely to come up for discussion.


I beg leave to second the Amendment, and I wish simply to mention that there is a Bill that has been before Parliament for eight years now, and it is to be put on one side. That Bill has priority on the 18th May over the Bills to which hon. Gentlemen have alluded, and I think that after waiting patiently all that time I should now be rewarded.

*SIR JOHN LUBBOCK (London University)

I am somewhat surprised at seeing my right hon. Friend propose a Motion to deprive us of our opportunity of moving my Motion to-morrow evening relating to the Education Bill which is down in my name. For a good many years past there has been a continual tendency to encroach upon the rights of private Members, and this is almost the first time it has been done without any special reasons being given. We have now very few opportunities of bringing forward Measures, and I am afraid that I shall have no other opportunity this Session if to-morrow is taken.


Order, order! The date under consideration is the 18th of May.


Before dealing with the comparatively narrow point raised by the Amendment, let me just say one word upon this question, and let me preface that word by taking up, if I may, the charge which my right hon. Friend behind me has made, that I am the first person occupying the position of Leader of the House who has introduced such a Motion without any explanation or comment at all. Well, it is my misfortune to inflict myself upon the House, but I do not wish to make speeches in which everybody knows precisely what I am going to say before I say it, and everybody knows why this Motion is put forward. The Bill in respect of which it is put forward is the biggest Measure of the Session, and it is one which must take a considerable amount of time in Committee. Certainly it is quite in accordance with usage, and it is certainly for the convenience of the House, that when the discussions on any stage of that Bill are commenced they should be continued de die in diem with as little interruption as possible. These are the broad grounds of the appeal I make to the House, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend will remember this before he reproaches me with having unnecessarily taken up the opportunities of private Members with regard to the special Motion before us, which is that a particular Wednesday should be reserved from the operation of this Rule. I may remind the House that it is quite impossible, I think, to manage the business of this House if we are to make exceptions here and there, either in accordance with our own particular views or in accordance with the views or prejudices of any particular section of this House. Endless confusion and complications would arise, and if the House consents to such a Motion it must do so with the distinct understanding that the Motion is worked impartially, and that, however legitimate may be the desire of certain hon. Gentlemen in the House to discuss these Bills which they have secured days for, it is quite impossible to meet their wishes, desirous as we are of doing so, without introducing difficulties into the general management of the business of the House of Commons. I hope, therefore, the hon. Gentleman will think that this has not any special reference to his Bill, because it is applied equally to all Bills, from whatever part of the House they proceed. I hope, therefore, the House will not be put to the trouble of dividing.

MR. SAMUEL WOODS (Essex, Walthamstow)

I think I am speaking correctly when I say that for one or two years, within the last six years, a special exemption has been made of the Miners' Eight Hours Bill. I think the Leader of the House of Commons in the last administration, on one or two occasions, had specially exempted the Eight Hours Bill from all Measures exempted. Great interest is taken in this question, not only in the House of Commons, but outside of it, and I think the right hon. Gentleman might reasonably and sympathetically consider the appeal which is made in the Amendment of my right hon. Friend. I would appeal respectfully to him, and ask him to really reconsider the attitude he has taken up in regard to these Bills included in the Amendment of my hon. Friend, and I hope he will make the exemption asked for.


I rather agree, speaking generally, with what has fallen from the Leader of the House. I think it is very difficult to make exceptions, and that in all these matters goose and gander must be served with the same sauce. But I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that this Miners' Bill has had a great deal of interest taken in it in the country, and it comes up for consideration on the first Wednesday after the Easter holidays, if we meet on a Monday. We know perfectly well that important Bills are not, as a matter of fact, taken immediately after the holidays, so that in all probability, without interfering either with Irish gentlemen, who very often want to prolong their holidays a little while in Ireland, and without interfering with the general scheme of the Government, we might make this exception. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman will take the Irish Bill that day, so that I really think he might say that he will consider the matter and see whether it is possible to make exemptions in this instance without interfering with the general arrangements of the Government.

*MR. JAMES LOWTHER (Kent, Isle of Thanet)

The proposal of my right hon. Friend, which he spoke of as being in conformity with general practice, seems to me, upon the other hand, to lead us a long way further than we have been asked to go upon any previous occasion in the direction of extinguishing the rights of unofficial Members. My right hon. Friend speaks of the particular Bill he desires to proceed with as being of great importance. Government always consider their Measures as of great importance, so that what we are now asked to do is to establish a precedent by means of which the Government of the day may be able at its discretion to absorb the whole time of the House for its own business. If, however, any proposal of the kind is to be adopted, we ought, at any rate, to carry it out impartially, and not to make exceptions in favour of any one or more private Members' Bills. I further would express a hope that my right hon. Friend does not propose to set aside the regular Rules and Standing Orders under which the business of the House is supposed to be conducted, except upon very special occasions.


I would like to make an appeal to the Leader of the House with regard to the Intoxicating Liquors (Ireland) Bill, which is first Order on the 4th of May.

SIR GEORGE S. BADEN-POWELL (Liverpool, Kirkdale)

I wish to enter my protest against the right hon. Gentleman making any concessions of the kind asked for by the hon. Members who have spoken. I have a Motion down on the Paper upon a most important Colonial matter, and I consider that I should not be doing my duty if I did not surrender my Motion in the interests of the Empire.

Motion made and Question proposed— That the several stages of the Local Government (Ireland) Bill have precedence of all Orders of the Day and Notices of Motions on every day for which the Bill is appointed."—(Mr. Balfour.)

Amendment proposed, at the end of the Question, to add the words— Except on Wednesday, the 27th of April, and on Wednesday, the 18th of May."—(Mr. William Allen.)

Question put— That those words be there added.

The House divided:—Ayes 77; Noes 221.

Allan, William (Gateshead) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Pirie, Captain Duncan
Asher, Alexander Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Price, Robert John
Ashton, Thomas Gair Holburn, J. G. Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. J. Blair (Clackm.) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Billson, Alfred Jacoby, James Alfred Rickett, J. Compton
Birrell, Augustine Jones, David Brynmor (Swnsea) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Brigg, John Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U. Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Brunner, Sir Jno. Tomlinson Kearley, Hudson E. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Kinloch, Sir Jno. Geo. Smyth Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarsh.)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Labouchere, Henry Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Caldwell, James Lambert, George Stevenson, Francis S.
Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgw.) Leese, Sir Josh. F. (Accrington) Strachey, Edward
Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- Leng, Sir John Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.)
Causton, Richard Knight Lewis, John Herbert Ure, Alexander
Clough, Walter Owen Lloyd-George, David Wallace, Robert (Perth)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Logan, John William Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Commins, Andrew Lyell, Sir Leonard Wayman, Thomas
Crombie, John William M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) Wedderburn, Sir William
Dalziel, James Henry M'Ewan, William Williams, Jno. Carvell (Notts.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles McKenna, Reginald Wills, Sir William Henry
Duckworth, James Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Wilson, John (Govan)
Ellis, Jno. Edw. (Notts.) Moss, Samuel Woodall, William
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Newdigate, Francis Alexander Woods, Samuel
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Nussey, Thomas Willans
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Oldroyd, Mark TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley Perks, Robert William Mr. William Allen and
Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Captain Norton.
Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden Cohen, Benjamin Louis Fry, Lewis
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Galloway, William Johnson
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready Garfit, William
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole Gilliat, John Saunders
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Cox, Robert Goldsworthy, Major-General
Baden-Powell, Sir Geo. Smyth Cranborne, Viscount Gordon, Hon. John Edward
Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy Cripps, Charles Alfred Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Baird, John George Alex. Cross, Herbt. Shepherd (Bolton) Greville, Captain
Balcarres, Lord Cruddas, William Donaldson Gull, Sir Cameron
Baldwin, Alfred Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hall, Sir Charles
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Halsey, Thos. Frederick
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Grld. W. (Leeds) Curzon, Rt. Hn. G. N. (Lanc S. W.) Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.
Banbury, Frederick George Curzon, Viscount (Bucks) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W.
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Hanson, Sir Reginald
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hare, Thomas Leigh
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristl.) Daly, James Healy, Maurice (Cork)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Davenport, W. Bromley- Healy, Timothy M. (N. Louth)
Bethell, Commander Davitt, Michael Heath, James
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Denny, Colonel Heaton, John Henniker
Bill, Charles Dillon, John Helder, Augustus
Blake, Edward Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arth. (Down)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Doogan, P. C. Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstd.)
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Dorington, Sir Jno. Edward Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- Hogan, James Francis
Boulnois, Edmund Drage, Geoffrey Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh
Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis) Drucker, A. Howell, William Tudor
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Howorth, Sir Henry Hoyle
Brown, Alexander H. Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil
Bucknill, Thomas Townsend Engledew, Charles John Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Carlile, William Walter Fardell, Sir T. George Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc.) Jameson, Major J. Eustace
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Field, William (Dublin) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Charrington, Spencer Fisher, William Hayes Johnston, William (Belfast)
Clancy, John Joseph Fison, Frederick William Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Flower, Ernest Kenyon, James
King, Sir Henry Seymour Mowbray, Rt. Hon. Sir John Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)
Lafone, Alfred Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grhm (Bute) Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.)
Lawrence, Sir Ed. (Cornwall) Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Myers, William Henry Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. Nicholson, William Graham Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)
Legh, Hon. Thos. W. (Lanc.) Nicol, Donald Ninian Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth)
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Long, Rt. Hn. Walt. (L'pool) O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller O'Kelly, James Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lorne, Marquess of Parnell, John Howard Thorburn, Walter
Lough, Thomas Pease, Arthur (Darlington) Thornton, Percy M.
Lowles, John Pender, James Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray
Lowther, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Kent) Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Horace Curz'n Tritton, Charles Ernest
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Usborne, Thomas
Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin) Verney, Hn. Richard Greville
Macaleese, Daniel Purvis, Robert Warkworth, Lord
Macartney, W. G. Ellison Rankin, James Warr, Augustus Frederick
Macdona, John Cumming Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras)
Maclean, James Mackenzie Redmond, Jno. E. (Waterford) Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.) Redmond, William (Clare) Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim) Rentoul, James Alexander Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
M'Iver, Sir Lewis Richardson, J. (Durham Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Malcolm, Ian Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Williams, Josh. Powell- (Birm.)
Maple, Sir John Blundell Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir Hbt. E. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)
Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) Roche, Hn. James (E. Kerry) Wodehouse, Edm. R. (Bath)
Melville, Beresford Valentine Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Milner, Sir Frederick George Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Milward, Colonel Victor Rutherford, John Wyndham, George
Molloy, Bernard Charles Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Young, Samuel
Monckton, Edward Philip Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles Younger, William
Monk, Charles James Savory, Sir Joseph
More, Robert Jasper Seely, Charles Hilton TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'rd) Sharpe, William Edward T. Sir William Walrond and
Mount, William George Shee, James John Mr. Anstruther.