HC Deb 21 March 1898 vol 55 cc525-30

  1. 1. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,988,000, be granted to Her Majesty to defray the expenses of wages, etc., to officers, seamen and boys, coast guard, and Royal Marines, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1899."
  2. 526
  3. 2. "That a sum, not exceeding £247,700, be granted to Her Majesty to defray the expenses of the Admiralty Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1899."
  4. 3. "That a sum, not exceeding £650,100, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the expense of works, buildings, and repairs, at home and abroad, including the cost of superintendence, purchase of sites, grants in aid, and other charges connected therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1899."

Resolutions read a second time.

Third Resolution— That a sum, not exceeding £650,100, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the expense of works, buildings, and repairs, at home and abroad, including the cost of superintendence, purchase of sites, grants in aid, and other charges connected therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1899.

CAPTAIN D. V. PIRIE (Aberdeen, N.)

This Vote was discussed in Committee last Friday at a very late hour, and was scarcely sufficiently discussed. There is one item to which I wish to draw the attention of the House, and that is the item under which money is spent for dockyards. I wish to ask for further information than was given to us on Friday as to the amount of money spent in the northern part of this island. Year by year this matter has been brought forward by Members on both sides of the House from Scotch constituencies, and year after year there is the same want of attention to their most legitimate demands. I want to understand how it is that there is less money spent on the defences of the northern portion of the kingdom.


May I ask your ruling, Sir, as to whether a discussion on the defences of the northern part of the island properly arises upon this Vote?


The general subject was discussed upon this Vote.


May I point out that last year this very question of dockyards was discussed upon this Vote?


The hon. Member, as I understood, was not confining himself to dockyards.


I wanted to refer, Sir, to the very great danger which the country runs by the neglect to provide proper dock accommodation in the north of Scotland. The naval manœuvres have proved constantly that there is great necessity for the provision of dockyards both on the west and the east coast of Scotland. Another danger that might be felt acutely in time of war is the absence of skilled shipwrights available for the repair of any of Her Majesty's vessels that might unfortunately come to grief along that coast. The defence of the Clyde has been constantly brought before this House, principally by Members on the opposite side of the House. Two years ago a deputation waited on the First Lord of the Admiralty urging the establishment of a dockyard either at Greenock or at some place on the Clyde, and asking the Admiralty to grant some small subsidy. Still, nothing has been done. I do not put this before the House as a purely Scotch matter. I take a more broad and Imperial view of the question. I consider the defence of Scotland to be as important, from an Imperial point of view, to the safety of the United Kingdom as the defence of the English coasts. The Convention of Royal Burghs in Scotland has frequently called attention to this matter, and it is one undoubtedly deserving the immediate attention of the Admiralty. I beg to move a reduction of the Vote by £100.

Amendment proposed— To leave out '£650,100,' and insert '£650,000'"—(Captain Pirie) instead thereof.


This question was raised the other night by an hon. Friend of mine behind me, and I gave him then the only answer that I can give this evening. I do not wish to say what it may be necessary for this country to do in the future, or where it may be necessary for us to provide docks, but at the present time the Admiralty has carefully considered the immediate and pressing needs of the Fleet, and they do not consider that a dockyard in Scotland is amongst those most pressing needs. There is a great deal of other pressing work to be done, and after a careful survey of the needs of the Fleet, and the strategic necessities on the northern coasts of Scotland, we have decided that there are other and more urgent matters which must have precedence. For these reasons I cannot hold out any hope that the Government will at an early date be willing to find money for a dock on the Clyde.

DR. G. B. CLARK (Caithness)

I regret to find that this Government, like its predecessor, although there are a great many Scotchmen included in it, pay no heed to the demands of Scotland. Why, Sir, we have the iron, we have the skilled labour, we have the best facilities for building ships and repairing ships, and yet we are still without a naval dock in Scotland. You have all your eggs in one basket—all your docks are in the south of England, far away from coal or iron. Why is that? Simply because in the olden days there was oak there, and when your ships were built of oak they were naturally the proper places at which to have your shipbuilding yards; but now you are building your ships of iron those are the worst places you could possibly have. At present we have one naval dockyard in Ireland, which, it is true, is not worth a very great deal, and we have one in Wales, and several in England, but there is none in Scotland. I had the pleasure of introducing this question a dozen years ago, and I received very strong support from Scotch Members on both sides of the House. I am glad to hear that a Unionist Scotch Member on Friday night brought this matter forward. It is one that urgently demands attention, and it would have received attention years ago had it not been that Scotch Members are so few that they can be treated with contempt.

Question put— That '£650,100' stand part of the said Resolution.

The House divided:—Ayes 137; Noes 43.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) Begg, Ferdinand Faithful Clarke, Sir Ed. (Plymouth)
Aird, John Beresford, Lord Charles Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bigwood, James Coghill, Douglas Harry
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Blake, Edward Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Baden-Powell, Sir Geo. Smyth Bond, Edward Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Bailey, James (Walworth) Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready
Baillie, Jas. E. B. (Inverness) Bullard, Sir Harry Commins, Andrew
Baird, Jno. Geo. Alexander Butcher, John George Condon, Thomas Joseph
Balcarres, Lord Carew, James Laurence Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.) Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Grld W. (Leeds) Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leonard H.
Bartley, George C. T. Chambelain, J. Austen (Woc'r.) Cranborne, Viscount
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Charrington, Spencer Crilly, Daniel
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Clancy, John Joseph Cripps, Charles Alfred
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristl.) Clare, Octavius Leigh Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)
Cross, Herbt. Shepherd (Bolton) Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Jebb, Richard Claverhouse O'Kelly, James
Curran, Thos. (Sligo, S.) Johnston, William (Belfast) Parnell, John Howard
Curzon, Viscount (Bucks.) Johnstone, John H. (Sussex) Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Horace Curz'n
Daly, James Jordan, Jeremiah Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Denny, Colonel Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Purvis, Robert
Dillon, John Kenyon, James Redmond, Jno. E. (Waterford)
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Kimber, Henry Redmond, William (Clare)
Doogan, P. C. Knox, Edmund Francis Vesey Rentoul, James Alexander
Dorington, Sir Jno. Edward Lafone, Alfred Robertson, Herbert (Hackney.)
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- Laurie, Lieut.-General Royds, Clement Molyneux
Drucker, A. Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Leese, Sir Josh. F. (Accrington) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Fardell, Sir T. George Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Saunderson, Colonel Ed. Jas.
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Leighton, Stanley Sharpe, William Edward T.
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc.) Lowe, Francis William Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Field, William (Dublin) Lowles, John Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)>
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Loyd, Archie Kirkman Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.)
Fisher, William Hayes Lyell, Sir Leonard Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Forster, Henry William Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Forwood, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur B. Macaleese, Daniel Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Macartney, W. G. Ellison Spencer, Ernest
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Macdona, John Cumming Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Gilliat, John Saunders MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Queen's C.) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Goldsworthy, Major-General M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon M'Dermott, Patrick Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.) Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)
Gretton, John M'Iver, Sir Lewis Tanner, Charles Kearns
Hammond, John (Carlow) Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) Tully, Jasper
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm. Molloy, Bernard Charles Wanklyn, James Leslie
Hanson, Sir Reginald Monckton, Edward Philip Warkworth, Lord
Harwood, George More, Robert Jasper Warr, Augustus Frederick
Healy, Maurice (Cork) Morley, Rt. Hn. Jno. (Montrose) Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Healy, Timothy N. (N. Louth) Morrell, George Herbert Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras)
Helder, Augustus Murray Rt. Hn. A. Grahm (Bute) Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Chas. H. Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arth. (Down) Nicholson, William Graham Wyndham, George
Hogan, James Francis Nicol, Donald Ninian Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Holden, Sir Angus O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Houston, R. P. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Howard, Joseph O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) Sir William Walrond and
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Mr. Anstruther.
Brigg, John Lloyd-George, David Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson M'Kenna, Reginald Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)
Caldwell, James Oldroyd, Mark Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Dalziel, James Henry Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Wilson, Jos. H. (Middl'sbrough)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan) Rickett, J. Compton
Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles Robson, William Snowdon TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Duckworth, James Stevenson, Francis S. Mr. Lambert and Mr.
Dunn, Sir William Strachey, Edward Logan.

First two Resolutions agreed to.

Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Forster, Henry William Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'rd)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Forwood, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur B. Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grhm (Bute)
Baden-Powell, Sir Geo. Smyth Galloway, William Johnson Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy Godson, Augustus Frederick Nicholson, William Graham
Bailey, James (Walworth) Goldsworthy, Major-General Nicol, Donald Ninian
Baird, Jno. Geo. Alexander Gordon, Hon. John Edward Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Balcarres, Lord Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Horace Curz'n
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.) Goulding, Edward Alfred Pryce-Jones, Edward
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerld W. (Leeds) Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Purvis, Robert
Banbury, Frederick George Gretton, John Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Greville, Captain Rentoul, James Alexander
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Gull, Sir Cameron Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlpl.)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristl.) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W. Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Beresford, Lord Charles Hanson, Sir Reginald Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hare, Thomas Leigh Round, James
Bond, Edward Heath, James Royds, Clement Molyneux
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Helder, Augustus Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Brookfield, A. Montagu Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arth. (Down) Rutherford, John
Bullard, Sir Harry Howell, William Tudor Savory, Sir Joseph
Butcher, John George Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Seely, Charles Hilton
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Kemp, George Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.) Kenyon, James Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Kimber, Henry Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)
Charrington, Spencer Lafone, Alfred Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Strauss, Arthur
Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Lowe, Francis William Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lowles, John Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Loyd, Archie Kirkman Valentia, Viscount
Curzon, Rt. Hn. G. N. (Lanc S. W.) Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Wanklyn, James Leslie
Curzon, Viscount (Bucks) Macartney, W. G. Ellison Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool) Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir Jno. P. Macdona, John Cumming Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Maclure, Sir John William Williams, Josh. Powell- (Birm.)
Drucker, A. Malcolm, Ian Wilson, J. W. (Worc. N.)
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Martin, Richard Biddulph Wodehouse, Edm. R. (Bath)
Edwards, Gen. Sir J. Bevan Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wyndham, George
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milward, Colonel Victor Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Fisher, William Hayes Monckton, Edward Philip
Fison, Frederick William Moon, Edward Robert Pacy TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Fletcher, Sir Henry More, Robert Jasper Sir William Walrond and
Flower, Ernest Morrell, George Herbert Mr. Anstruther.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Birrell, Augustine Flavin, Michael Joseph Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Brigg, John Goddard, Daniel Ford Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarsh.)
Buchanan, Thos. Ryburn Hammond, John (Carlow) Stevenson, Francis S.
Caldwell, James Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton Healy, Timothy M. (N. Louth) Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)
Causton, Richard Knight Jordan, Jeremiah Tully, Jasper
Commins, Andrew Lambert, George Ure, Alexander
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lyell, Sir Leonard Wedderburn, Sir William
Crilly, Daniel Macaleese, Daniel Wilson, John (Govan)
Daly, James M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.) Wylie, Alexander
Denny, Colonel M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)
Doogan, P. C. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Duckworth, James Nussey, Thomas Willans Captain Pirie and Dr.
Dunn, Sir William Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Clark.
Ellis, Thos. Ed. (Merionethsh) Pickersgill, Edward Hare