§
4. Motion made, and Question proposed—
That a sum, not exceeding £46,424, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1898, to make good (1) the sum by which the Interest accrued in the year ended 20th November, 1897, from Securities held by the National Debt Commissioners, on account of '"The Fund for the Banks of Savings,"" and "The Fund for Friendly Societies" was insufficient to meet the Interest which the said Commissioners are obliged by Statute to pay and Credit to Trustees of Savings Banks and to Friendly Societies; (2) the sum by which the Interest accrued in the years ended 31st December, 1896, and 31st December, 1897, from Securities held by the National Debt Commissioners on account of "The Post Office Savings Bank Fund," was insufficient to meet the Interest which the said Commissioners are obliged by Statute to pay and credit to depositors, and the Expenses incurred during those years in the execution of the Acts relating thereto.
§ DR. CLARKI think we should have some pledge from the First Lord of the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer that legislation will be introduced to stop this leakage. The Friendly Societies and the Trustee Savings Bank and the Post Office Savings Bank ought to be run on commercial lines, and we ought not to be called upon to vote every year these subsidies. This has been going on for several years, but nothing has been done, although the Government before the last pledged themselves to deal with the matter. These deficiencies are becoming more and more every year. In addition to what we have already given, there is £46,000 now to be found. That means that the value of money is becoming less and less every year, and yet we are going on paying a rate of interest which was fixed many years ago when the value of money was greater. I do not intend to take a Division against the Vote, but when we come to this item in the Estimates, unless some assurance is given by the Government, I shall certainly take a Division upon it.
§ MR. G. C. T. BARTLEY (Islington, N.)The whole subject is one of very great complication. The hon. Member has told us that this deficiency is increasing yearly, but, after all, it is not a matter of the amount of money; it is a matter of the policy which the Vote involves. It seems to me that the time has come when the Government should make some distinct statement as to their policy. The State holds now something like 160 or 170 millions sterling of consols. At the present rate of consols, we cannot pay the interest, let alone the cost of carrying on these institutions. I think the time has come when it is to the public advantage that either a regular Vote should be taken to decrease the interest, or that we should distinctly state that some effort, at any rate, should be made to prevent this loss. I think myself it is a matter of very great importance. It is, no doubt, not a very popular subject to handle, but there is one advantage in having a Government with a large majority—that they can do that which is right, apart from any consideration as to whether it is popular or not. The longer this is put off the more serious the difficulty will become. Perhaps something might be done by providing that depositors over a certain amount, or, at any rate new depositors should not receive the large interest that is now given. It was certainly not intended that these savings banks should make a loss to the State, and that this large taxation should be necessary to make good that loss. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to promise to introduce some legislation to deal with the matter.
§ *MR. T. LOUGH (Islington, W.)I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not promise anything in the direction indicated by the hon. Member who has just sat down without the fullest consideration. The largest item in this Vote is £23,000 for the Trustee Savings Banks. That stands on an entirely different footing from the other items. It is more than half the whole Vote. It is a sum paid out of consideration for the difficulties in which these Trustee Savings Banks 581 stand, owing to the great competition of that national institution—the Post Office Savings Bank. As to the deficiency in connection with the Post Office Savings Banks, when one thinks for a moment of the vast sums winch are invested in the Post Office Savings Bank, 130 or 140 millions, and when we remember that there are many millions of depositors in these Savings Banks, this loss of £11,700 is a mere bagatelle. I should like to ask whether, as a matter of fact, there has not been for many years past a profit? Whether there is or not, it is, at any rate, very likely there will be a profit in the future. The loss has probably been caused by reason of the buying of Consols. I do not see why we should persist in buying Consols. It tends to put up the price, and other securities might be bought. I only throw out this hint, but at any rate some saving ought to be possible in the administration of this great Bank. There may be many ways of meeting this really trivial loss of £11,000 a year, and I would earnestly appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to make any change which would prejudice an institution which is a great benefit to a vast number of people.
§ *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. E. HICKS BEACH,) Bristol, W.I must say that I sympathise with my hon. friend sitting below me when he protests that there ought not to be a charge upon the general taxpayers of the country in order to pay higher interest to depositors in savings banks than their money legitimately earns. But, Sir, after all, we must apply every kind of principle with some regard to the actual circumstances of the case. Now what are the circumstances of this case? For many years past, up to last year, the accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank have shown a considerable surplus income. Last year, for the first time, there was a deficit—a small deficit. This year the deficit has slightly increased, but what is it when compared 582 with the total amount of interest paid? Why, Sir, the total amount of the interest paid by the Post Office Savings Bank to depositors in the year 1896 amounted to £2,458,000. Surely my hon. Friend will not think that a deficit of some £9,000 or £10,000 in 1897 is very important in comparison with such a sum. There is, of course, very considerable difficulty in dealing with this matter, owing to the natural desire which, I am sure, is entertained by every hon. Member, to encourage savings banks. We are approaching the time when the interest on the National Debt will be reduced from 2¾ per cent. to 2½ per cent. That will be the proper time to reduce the rate of interest paid to the Trustee Savings Banks from 2¾ to 2½ per cent., and the Post Office Savings Bank would then naturally follow with a similar reduction of ¼ per cent. I confess I have been agreeably surprised by the small amount of deficit incurred in this last year. That has been due to several circumstances. There has been a decrease in fresh deposits in savings banks as compared with the previous year of something like two millions, a decrease probably due in some measure to the high Bank rate. But though there has been a deficit in income, there was, on December 31st, 1896, a surplus of no less than £11,900,000 on the capital account of the Post Office Savings Bank.
§ *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERAt their price on that day. I can assure my hon. Friend that I am watching this matter very closely, and as soon as I think the time has arrived when a greater burden is being imposed on the taxpayers than they ought to be called upon to bear, I shall feel it my duty to take action.
§ DR. CLARKI should like to ask when there was any surplus in the Trustee Savings Bank Account or the 583 Friendly Societies Account? Up to last year there were only two items in this Vote, headings A and B. Now we have headings A, B, and C. Since I have been in the House we have had a deficit every year, and I think nearly every year the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made a similar statement to that just made by the right hon. Gentleman, and promised to deal with the matter, but nothing has been done. In addition to the two burdens we have had for a long time in connection with the Trustee Savings Banks and Friendly Societies, we are now to meet a third. I should like to ask when there was a surplus on the Trustee Savings Banks, and how much we have paid during the last ten or twelve years to make up this deficiency?
§ *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERDuring the last 22 years there have been deficits of varying amount in 16 years, and surpluses in 6 years. I think 1891 was the last year in which there was a surplus. But I would point out that in the year 1895 the deficit was £22,891, so that the deficit this year shows only a small increase.
§ MR. CALDWELLThere is one matter which I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer should bear in mind. He will no doubt be aware that in the Post Office Accounts a very considerable sum—I think about £60,000 a year—is debited to the Post Office Savings Bank Department in respect of postage. I would, therefore, point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that obviously he should not look to make a separate profit out of the Post Office Savings Bank in a matter of this kind, when we know that the Department already furnishes a certain proportion of the profit which is handed in to the Exchequer every year towards the general revenue of the country. I mention this not merely because this £60,000 a year is an important sum in itself, but there are many other matters 584 of expenditure in regard to which probably careful inquiry would show that rather more is debited to the Post Office Savings Bank Department than there should be, especially when we are dealing with a matter in which the greatest liberality should be shown by the State. I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer would probably find on inquiry that, after all, if these banks do not make a profit, they do not make any loss. Then, the right hon. Gentleman has given us the figures as to interest, and so on, in relation to the Post Office Savings Bank; I should like to ask him whether he can give us the same statistics in relation to the Trustee Savings Banks? The comparison of the two sets of figures would be interesting.
§ *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERI am sorry to say I have not those figures with me.
§ *MR. LOUGHAs the right hon. Gentleman has called attention to the deficit in connection with the Trustee Savings Banks, I would be obliged if he would give us an idea of the amount of surplus in connection with the Post Office Savings Bank, because I protest against the one being considered separately from the other. The surplus in the one case should be reckoned against the deficit in the other.
§ *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERI do not agree with the view of the hon. Member. I can only tell him that the surplus was considerable; I cannot at present give him the figures.
§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)I think the answers given by the right hon. Gentleman opposite are far from satisfactory. One of the first and the best of these Trustee Savings Banks was that established in the city of Cork by a Mr. Tiray. If you have these great deficits and deficiencies, and if you also find that, unfortunately, in Ireland things are going from bad to worse, we 585 have a right to call upon the Treasury Authorities to show us that they are doing their best in dealing with the particular points we are called upon to investigate. Now, to cut a long matter short, this deficit amounts to the extraordinary sum of £23,197, and in order to bring the matter to a determination, I beg to move a reduction of the Vote by the sum of £5,000. In all these financial affairs we must try to do our best; we cannot do more. [Interruption.] The hon. Members who take exception to my remarks, perhaps, do not care to know anything about these details; but, speaking as one who knows something about one of the best of these Savings Banks—that is, the one at Cork, established by Mr. Tiray, whose statue is placed opposite the Bank as an object of admiration—
THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANSI must ask the hon. Gentleman to confine himself to the subject-matter of the Vote.
§ DR. TANNERI have moved a reduction of the Vote, and I am entitled to support my proposition. I say that it is iniquitous that this deficiency—
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERrose in his place, and claimed to move—
That the Question be now put:"—
§ Question put.
§ Dr. TANNERwas appointed a Teller for the Noes, but no Member being willing to act as the second Teller, the Chairman declared that the Ayes had it.
§
Question put accordingly—
That a sum, not exceeding £46,424, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will tome in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1898, to make good (1) the sum by which the Interest accrued in the year ended 20th November, 1897, from Securities held by the National Debt Commissioners, on account of 'The Fund for the Banks of Savings,' and 'The Fund for Friendly Societies,' was insufficient
586
to meet the Interest which the said Commissioners are obliged by Statute to pay and credit, to Trustees of Savings Banks and to Friendly Societies; (2) the sum by which the Interest accrued in the years ended 31st December, 1896, and 31st December, 1897, from securities held by the National Debt Commissioners on account of 'The Post Office Savings Bank Fund,' was insufficient to meet the Interest which the said Commissioners are obliged by Statute to pay and credit to Depositors, and the expenses incurred during those years in the execution of the Acts relating thereto.
§ Resolution to be reported.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed—
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,810, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1898, for Expenditure in connection with certain Public Works, and for improved Communications, and other purposes, within the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, including a Grant in Aid:"—
§ MR. CALDWELLThis Vote raises two questions of considerable importance: first, with regard to the provision of steamers on the west coast of Scotland; and, secondly, with regard to a sum expended in connection with a road from Stornoway to Carloway, in the Island of Lewis. So far as the Vote is concerned, there is a principle involved here—that the money we are voting is not to go to the Imperial Treasury, but it is to be handed over to a Scottish Board. There is an unexpended balance of £1,485, which, instead of going back to Imperial funds, is to be re-voted to the Congested Districts (Scotland) Board. The original sum of £15,000 was voted for the construction of this road as suitable, not merely as a road, but for the purposes of a tram. I should like to ash how much money has been expended on this Vote—
§ It being midnight, the CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his report to the House.
§ Resolutions to be reported this day; Committee also report progress; to sit again this day.