HC Deb 23 June 1898 vol 59 cc1282-5

Amendment proposed— Page 1, line 6, leave out 'money,' and insert 'fines, pecuniary penalties, and forfeitures, or such part of any of them as is made so payable'"—(Mr. Caldwell.)

MR. CALDWELL (Lanark, Mid)

Sir, the clause in this Bill which these words are intended to amend refers entirely to the fees. What you are proposing here is to use the word "money" instead of the word "fine." Now the fees of a court never can go into the Police fund.

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. JESSE COLLINGS,) Birmingham, Bordesley

It may shorten the honourable Member's remarks if I say we are prepared to accept his words.

MR. CALDWELL

I thought so. This only shows that if I had not looked at it this Bill would have been just about as bad as it was last year.

MR. COLLINGS

I mean the words "fines, pecuniary penalties, and forfeitures."

MR. CALDWELL

I may mention the other part of the Amendment is to take in the words "or such part as is made so payable." Those are taken from the Statute, and they are necessary. I assure my honourable Friend these are absolutely right, and are taken from the previous Statute.

MR. COLLINGS

What my honourable Friend says is quite true. They are taken from a previous Statute. But if he will read the section in conjunction with the clause he will find it is neither grammar nor sense.

MR. CALDWELL

I will just read it in that way. It would be— Nothing in section 6 of the Metropolitan Police Courts Act, 1897, shall affect the application of fines, pecuniary penalties, and forfeitures, or such part or any of them as is made so payable, which under any other Act"— And that is what the right honourable Gentleman has not adverted to. You must leave the sentence there. These words were carefully prepared. I assure the honourable Gentleman I wish to support his Bill. I assure him I prepared these words very carefully. I think he ought to insert these words.

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. COLLINGS

moved— Page 1, line 7, after 'aggrieved' insert 'or to a police pension fund.'

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

This Bill as it stands is simply incomprehensible. I defy any Member of the Committee to read the clause and understand what it means, or to understand what the Amendment means. I desire simply to make a protest.

Motion put.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. CALDWELL

moved— Page 1, line 9, leave out 'or Inland Revenue' and insert 'Excise or other branch of Her Majesty's Revenue, or to the Post Office, or Trade, or Navigation, or under the Factory Acts.' He said the clause simply excepted Customs and Excise, but if they referred to the previous Statute the Committee would find that it included Excise, Post Office, Trade or Navigation, and the Factory Acts.

MR. COLLINGS

intimated that he could not accept the omission of "Inland Revenue."

MR. CALDWELL

You put in your Bill the words "Inland Revenue." Very well; the words in the previous Act are, "or other branches of Her Majesty's Revenue." It is simply a question of definition; the meaning is the same. I prefer the words of the former Statute to the words in this Bill. The Amendment will make it more comprehensive, and I think the right honourable Gentleman might accept it. We are not moved by any spirit of opposition.

MR. COLLINGS

intimated that he could not accept "Excise."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

MR. CALDWELL

We will get it by degrees.

MR. COLLINGS

moved— Page 1, line 9, after 'revenue' add 'or which when recovered is to be applied as an Excise penalty.'

MR. CALDWELL

moved— Page 1, line 9, after 'penalty' add 'or to be paid to the Crown or to the Exchequer.' He said: We have introduced, by Amendment, the Post Office and Trade or Navigation, and why impose a limit now? It is consequential upon what you have already done in the widening of the Bill to include the words— Or to be paid to the Crown or to the Exchequer.

MR. COLLINGS

The object of the Bill is that certain kinds of penalties shall go to pay salaries.

MR. CALDWELL

You are proposing to add the words "or which, when recovered, is to be applied as an Excise penalty." But you have adopted the words of the previous Statute, which refer to the Post Office, and Trade or Navigation, or Factory Acts. You have widened your Bill, and you must consequently widen your Amendment in accordance with the previous Act. I hope the right honourable Gentleman will accept this Amendment. I move it only with a desire to put the Bill right.

MR. COLLINGS

The honourable Member has not quite seen the point Under the Licences Act of 1877 there were certain penalties and fines which can only be recovered by an officer of the Inland Revenue, but after they have been recovered they are applied to Excise contributions.

MR. CALDWELL

I do not think I can make it clearer than I have done. Having widened the scope of the Bill by the previous Amendments, it necessarily follows that we should accept this Amendment. I never dreamed there would be the slightest objection to the addition of these words; but if the right honourable Gentleman does not wish to accept the Amendment I do not wish to waste the time of the Committee.

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. COLLINGS

moved— Page 1, line 12, after '1897,' add 'and shall be deemed to have come into operation on the first day of April one thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight.'

Question put.

Amendment agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported.