HC Deb 09 June 1898 vol 58 cc1245-9

Amendment proposed— Page 2, line 6, leave out clause 3."—(Mr. Warner.)


I beg leave to move the omission of clause 3, which provides as to the numbers authorised by the Army Act. I think it is perfectly unconstitutional that these extra men should be drawn from the Reserve. There is no precedent for such a thing, and presently I shall be able to show that there is no object in it, for it is one of the special privileges that this House has always claimed that they shall vote the standing Army year by year. Now, this clause is a means of enabling the Government to raise 5,000 men, if Her Majesty's Government chooses to do so, without the consent of the House. This is perfectly unnecessary, because whenever extra troops have been needed this House has always been ready to support the proposal. Even in days gone by, when recruiting was good, the Army has very seldom reached the number of men voted. Now these new battalions are starting, I think we should be perfectly safe in not putting in this clause, because the number of men voted by this House is sure to give certainly 5,000 men, which is the number which the Government desire to be able to call out without any difficulty or extreme feeling in this House. I hope the right honourable Gentleman will give way upon this point, and I am sure that if he will consult his colleagues, they will agree that it is certainly unnecessary, and that from a Parliamentary point of view it is most unconstitutional.


This proposal rests entirely on a misapprehension of the position. Parliament having already voted the men and the money for them, the honourable Gentleman now proposes one of two contingencies—either that we should put them into the Estimates twice over, or that we should trust to luck. That is a contention which is almost, if I may be allowed to say so, grotesque, and the honourable Gentleman must forgive me if I decline to treat this Amendment seriously.

Question put— That clause 3 stand part of the Bill.

The House divided:—Ayes 188; Noes 59.—(Division List No. 132.)

Allsopp, Hon. George Flannery, Fortescue More, Robert Jasper
Ambrose, Wm. (Middlesex) Fletcher, Sir Henry Morrell, George Herbert
Arrol, Sir William Folkestone, Viscount Morrison, Walter
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. Forwood, Rt. Hon. Sir A. B. Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Mount, William George
Bainbridge, Emerson Garfit, William Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Balcarres, Lord Gedge, Sydney Murray, Colonel W. (Bath)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch) Gibbons, J. Lloyd Myers, William Henry
Banbury, Frederick George Giles, Charles Tyrrell Nicholson, William Graham
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Goldsworthy, Major-General Nicol, Donald Ninian
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Gordon, Hon. John Edward Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H. (Bristol) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Parkes, Ebenezer
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Goschen, Rt. Hn. G.J.(St.Geo's) Phillpotts, Captain Arthur
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Goschen, G. J. (Sussex) Pierpoint, Robert
Beresford, Lord Charles Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)
Bethell, Commander Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) Purvis, Robert
Birrell, Augustine Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) Pym, C. Guy
Blundell, Colonel Henry Gull, Sir Cameron Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Bond, Edward Haldane, Richard Burdon Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.
Boulnois, Edmund Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Sir C. T.
Bousfield, William Robert Hanson, Sir Reginald Robinson, Brooke
Brassey, Albert Hardy, Laurence Round, James
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hare, Thomas Leigh Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Bullard, Sir Harry Heath, James Rutherford, John
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs) Helder, Augustus Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Henderson, Alexander Savory, Sir Joseph
Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord A. (Down) Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm.) Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead) Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.)
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Howell, William Tudor Simeon, Sir Barrington
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Charrington, Spencer Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth) Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. G. Stanley, Lord (Lancs)
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Strauss, Arthur
Coghill, Douglas Harry Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Kemp, George Sturt, Hon. Humphry N.
Colomb, Sir John C. R. Kenrick, William Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Compton, Lord Alwyne Kenyon-Slaney, Col. Wm. Talbot, Rt Hn J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.)
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) King, Sir Henry Seymour Tennant, Harold John
Cooke, C. W. R. (Hereford) Lafone, Alfred Thornton, Percy M.
Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) Lawrence, Sir E. (Cornwall) Tomlinson, W. E. Murray
Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Cox, Robert Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) Walton, John L. (Leeds, S.)
Cranborne, Viscount Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H. Ward, Hon R. A. (Crewe)
Crombie, John William Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Warr, Augustus Frederick
Curzon, Viscount (Bucks) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Loder, Gerald Walter E. Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Davenport, W. Bromley- Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l) Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-L.)
Denny, Colonel Lowe, Francis William Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lucas-Shadwell, William Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Macartney, W. G. Ellison Willox, Sir .John Archibald
Fardell, Sir T. George Maclean, James Mackenzie Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh. N.)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Maclure, Sir John William Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. McArthur, Wm. (Cornwall) Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) McCalmont, H. L. B. (Cambs) Wylie, Alexander
Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manch.) McEwan, William Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) McKillop, James Young, Com. (Berks, E.)
Finch, George H. Milner, Sir Frederick George Younger, William
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milton, Viscount
Fisher, William Hayes Milward, Colonel Victor TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose- Monckton, Edward Philip Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Montagu, Hon. J. S. (Hants)
Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) Hazell, Walter Roberts, J. H. (Denbighsh.)
Allison, Robert Andrew Healy, Maurice (Cork) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Holden, Sir Angus Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. M.
Brigg, John Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Broadhurst, Henry Jacoby, James Alfred Shee, James John
Brunner, Sir John T. Jones, Win. (Carnarvonshire) Stevenson, Francis S.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Knox, E. F. Vesey Strachey, Edward
Burt, Thomas Lambert, George Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Caldwell, James Langley, Batty Wallace, Robert (Perth)
Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness) Leng, Sir John Wedderburn, Sir William
Clough, Walter Owen Macaleese, Daniel Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Colville, John Maddison, Fred. Williams, John C. (Notts)
Dalziel, James Henry Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Wilson, H. J. (Yorks, W.R.)
Doogan, P. C. Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Fenwick, Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Wilson, John (Govan)
Ffrench, Peter Norton, Capt. Cecil Wm. Yoxall, James Henry
Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) Nussey, Thomas Willans
Goddard, Daniel Ford Pease, Jos. A. (Northumb.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Harwood, George Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Mr. Warner and Mr. Pirie.
Hayne, Rt. Hon, Chas. Seale- Roberts, John B. (Eifion)

Resolution agreed to.


I trust the House will now allow the Bill to be read a third time. Although this discussion has shown a difference of opinion with regard to some details, I venture to think that no exception has been taken to its general provisions.

Motion made and question put— That the Bill be now read a third time.

Agreed to.