HC Deb 21 July 1898 vol 62 cc759-64

Order read for adjourned Debate on Second Reading.

Motion made, and Question proposed— That the Bill be now read a second time.


I do trust that the right honourable Gentleman will not press the Second Reading of this Bill at this late hour. It is extremely hard upon those of us who wish to discuss the Bill to force it upon us at the end of a long sitting after one o'clock in the morning. The Bill professes to be founded on a recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee. That recommendation was entirely based on a series of remissions made by the Treasury, and established by the Public Accounts Committee without any alteration of the law. These remissions were remissions on death duties, and it was shown first of all that the death duties could easily be levied, and that there was no legal authority in the Committee to make these remissions. The result of that was that the Public Accounts Committee took into consideration the whole matter of the remission of duties without due authorisation by law. When I drew the attention of the right honourable Gentleman to this, he informed me that a Bill was to be introduced amending the law in that respect. Now, the first criticism. I have to make of this Bill is that it would not be workable. It deals with matters of extreme complication, and matters of great detail. I confess that I have had so much work to do to-day that I have not had time to examine the proposals of the Bill very carefully, but they deal with Amendments to the Stamp Act, customs prohibitions, excise duties, income tax, and so on. At this time of the night it is utterly impossible adequately to discuss the Bill, and I do not propose to discuss it at any length myself. There are many Amendments which deserve to be considered, and I trust the Government will not force upon an exhausted house a Bill of this sort.


I think we have some reason to complain of the conduct of Her Majesty's Government in this matter. This Bill was promised before the close of last Session, and yet the Government apparently deliberately have kept it back till the end of this Session, and propose that it shall be read a second time in the small hours of the morning without any explanation or opportunity for discussion. The Bill is of a very comprehensive character. One part of it deals with a number of operations in connection with trade, and I think that in a case of this kind ample time ought to be given to those who are more directly and immediately concerned in the operation and administration of the law which this Bill will affect, to consider it, and to communicate with those honourable Members of this House who represent them. Then there is another part of the Bill which proposes to enact

into law certain existing rules of practice with regard to granting relief in the payment of income tax. Now, I do not think that, because these rules are already Hi existence, therefore they ought, without adequate consideration, to be enacted into law. At this hour of the night, when, of course, many of us have been here without intermission since four or five o'clock, it is perfectly unreasonable that those who take an interest in the question should be expected to discuss it as they have a right to do. For these reasons I beg to move the adjournment of the Debate.

Motion made, and question put— That this debate be now adjourned."— (Mr. Pickersgill.)

The House divided:—Ayes 18; Noes 104.—(Division List No. 241.)

Allen, W. (Newc.-under-L.) Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Price, Robert John
Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn) Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Brigg, John Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)
Channing, Francis Allston Leuty, Thomas Richmond TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Clark, Dr.G.B. (Caithness-sh. Macaleese, Daniel Mr. Pickersgill and Mr.
Daly, James Maddison, Fred. Jonathan Samuel.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)
Goddard Daniel Ford Norton, Captain Cecil W.
Arrol, Sir William Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. Hardy, Laurence
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cox, Robert Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.
Bagot, Captain J. FitzRoy Curzon,RtHn.G.N.(Lanc.SW) Johnston, William (Belfast)
Balfour,Rt.Hon.A.J. (Manc'r) Curzon, Viscount (Bucks) Kemp, George
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Dalkeith, Earl of Kenyon, James
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lafone, Alfred
Beach,Rt.Hn.SirM.H.(Brist'l) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Laurie, Lieut.-General
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. LawrenceSirEDurning-(Corn.)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Finlay, Sir Robert B. Lees, Sir E. (Birkenhead)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Fisher, William Hayes Legh, Hon. T. W. (Lancs)
Caldwell, James Folkestone, Viscount Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Carlile, William Walter Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Cavendish.V. C.W. (Derbysh.) Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Loder, Gerald Walter E.
Cecil, Lord H. (Greenwich) Gibbons, J. Lloyd Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)
Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Godson, Sir Augustus F. Lucas-Shadwell, William
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J. (Birm.) Gordon, Hon. John Edward Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Maclure, Sir John William
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Graham, Henry Robert McCalmont,Mj.-Gn.(Ant'm N)
Charrington, Spencer Gray, Ernest (W. Ham) McKillop, James
Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth) Greene, W.Raymond-(Cambs) Malcolm, Ian
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Greville, Captain Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hall, Sir Charles Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Colomb, Sir John C. R. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. Milton, Viscount
Morgan, Hon.F. (Monm'thsh.) Robinson, Brooke Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Morrell, George Herbert Royds, Clement Molyneux Went worth, B. C. Vernon-
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)
Murray, C. J. (Coventry) Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)
Myers, William Henry Simeon, Sir Barrington Wilson J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)
Nicol, Donald Ninian Stanley, Lord (Lancs) Wortley, Rt.Hon.C.B. Stuart-
Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S. Stanley, B. J. (Somerset) Wyndham, George
Phillpotts, Captain Arthur Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W. Thornton, Percy M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T. Tomlinson, W. E. Murray Sir William Walrond and
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Valentia, Viscount Mr. Anstruther.

Main question— That the Bill be now read a second time.

The House divided:—Ayes 101; Noes 19.—(Division List No. 242.)

Arrol, Sir William Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Morrell, George Herbert
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Gibbons, J. Lloyd Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Bagot, Captain J. FitzRoy Godson, Sir Augustus F. Murray, C. J. (Coventry)
Balfour, Rt.Hn.A.J. (Manc'r) Gordon, Hon. John Edward Myers, William Henry
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Nicol, Donald Ninian
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. Graham, Henry Robert Northete, Hon. Sir H. S.
Beach,Rt.Hn.SirM.H.(Brist'l) Gray, Ernest (W. Ham) Phillpotts, Captain Arthur
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs) Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Greville, Captain Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hall, Sir Charles Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Carlile, William Walter Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. Robinson, Brooke
Cavendish,V. C.W. (Derbysh.) Johnston, William (Belfast) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cecil, Lord H. (Greenwich) Kemp, George Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Kenyon, James Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J. (Birm.) Lafone, Alfred Simeon, Sir Barrington
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Laurie, Lieut.-General Stanley, Lord (Lancs)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry LawrenceSirEDurning-(Corn.) Stanley, E. J. (Somerset)
Charrington, Spencer Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth) Lees, Sir E. (Birkenhead) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Legh, Hon. T. W. (Lancs) Thornton, Percy M.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Tomlinson, W. E. Murray
Colomb, Sir John C. R. Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Valentia, Viscount
Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. Loder, Gerald Walter E. Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Cox, Robert Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l) Wentworth, B. C. Vernon-
Curzon, Viscount (Bucks) Lucas-Shadwell, William Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)
Dalkeith, Earl of Macartney, W. G. Ellison Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Maclure, Sir John William Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- McCalmont,Mj.-Gn.(Ant'mN) Wortley, Rt.Hon.C.B. Stuart-
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. McKillop, James Wyndham, George
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. Malcolm, Ian Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Finlay, Sir Robert B. Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.
Fisher, William Hayes Mildmay, Francis Bingham TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Folkestone, Viscount Milton, Viscount Sir William Walrond and
Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Morgan, Hon.F. (Monm'thsh.) Mr. Anstruther.
Allen, W. (Newc.-under-L.) Goddard, Daniel Ford Norton, Captain Cecil W.
Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn) Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Price, Robert John
Brigg, John Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Caldwell, James Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)
Channing, Francis Allston Leuty, Thomas Richmond TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Clark, Dr.G.B. (Caithness-sh.) Macaleese, Daniel Mr. Pickersgill and Mr.
Daly, James Maddison, Fred. Jonathan Samuel.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.

House adjourned at 1.45.