§ The House went into Committee; Mr. J. W. LOWTHER in the Chair.
§ Amendment proposed upon clause 1.
§ MR. CALDWELLI rise to move an Amendment. This is a Bill which is to enable boroughs to make arrangements with parish councils to enable fire engines and appliances to go out of the district in case of a fire breaking out outside the district. It would be a very important power to confer upon these bodies, because a borough might make an arrangement which might, in, the first place, extend over a limited number of years. The Bill makes no provision for any particular time within which this agreement should terminate. It might be made for an indefinite period of time, whilst the constable of the borough is only elected for a short time. In a matter of this kind it is very important that some authority should be vested with, the power to act in a case of this kind on behalf of the district. In the first place, there is always a difficulty, if you wish to send a fire engine and appliances outside a borough, and there is also another difficulty, which is this: a fire might take place in the borough while the fire engine is away. It is very important, in my opinion, in a case of this kind, that the arrangement should only be made with the consent of the Local Government Board. Another reasen is that, if the consent of the Local Government Board were required, the Local Government Board would have to take particular care that no station in a borough was without sufficient appliances for the purpose of going outside. That is to say, the Local Government Board might reasonably withhold its consent unless such arrangements were made by the borough as would ensure that it 215 should be provided with fire engines and appliances sufficient to safeguard a larger district than the borough itself served. That is one of the things upon which the Local Government Board would have to insist. There is another reason. Suppose the district outside bought a fire engine and appliances of its own; it might not be expedient that the Local Government Board should then go to the borough and get its assistance, and the Local Government Board should then insist upon their using their fire engines and appliances as against themselves. There is one very remarkable thing about this Bill, and that is, it makes no limit whatever with regard to the distance as to which the fire engine may be sent; it might be one mile or 10 miles or 20 miles. There is no limit whatever, and I think there certainly ought to be some limit with regard to distance outside which the engines may go. That must be taken into consideration. Therefore, under all these circumstances, I consider that the consent of the Local Government Board should be obtained to these arrangements being entered into, and I move the Amendment—
That any agreement that is entered into should have the consent of the Local Government Board.
§ Question put.
§ MR. S. HOARE (Norwich)I think the honourable Member who has just moved the Amendment to this Bill scarcely appreciates the object of this Measure. It is all based upon a voluntary arrangement between the borough and the parish which may be in its immediate neighbourhood. Great and serious fires have broken out from time to time just outside the borough—only a few miles off—where there has been a great loss of life, and property, and the matter has been brought before the Local Government Board to allow boroughs, if they think fit, to make voluntary arrangements to meet that necessity of the district outside in case of a fire occurring in the district. The first Amendment put down is absolutely unnecessary, having regard to the fact that the arrangement is entirely a voluntary one. It is hardly necessary in a matter of this kind to have a long delay, as would inevitably 216 occur in obtaining the leave of the Local government Board during the time the fire is taking place. The great object is that the arrangement should be easy to make, and I hope the honourable Member will not press his Amendment. If he does, when we come to the second I shall have something further to say to the lommittee upon that. I think the authorities who are to be the parties, to the arrangement should have a free hand to make the arrangement, so that they should be able to meet the necessities of the case.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)I quite appreciate the honourable Gentleman's reference, to the Local Government Board, but I also hope that he will not press his Amendment. If the honourable Gentleman's views are carried out there will be a local inquiry by the Local Government Board to meet the case, and in a simple matter of this kind I think the authorities concerned might be allowed to act for themselves.
§ MR. BROADHURSTI do most sincerely hope that my honourable Friend will not press this Amendment further. He, I am sure, can thoroughly rely upon the fact that the local authority will not make any arrangement which is in any way injurious to the local authority itself, or to the local authority which owns the engine. This arrangement will only be made with such parishes as are immediately adjacent to the borough or town which possesses the engine, and will not be made with boroughs or towns which are a considerable distance off. To place the arrangement under the control or supervision, or to make it subject to the approval of the Local Government Board, would be to throw immense difficulties in the way of its being arrived at, and we are anxious to throw off the leading strings of the Local Government Board. They are very interesting bodies, no doubt, and we are always very glad and very pleased to see them at all times, but at the same time, when we have their inspectors coming down to hold inquiries, with their train of lawyers, solicitors, and other professional men, it always seems to me that those gentlemen always get a considerable share of the pickings that 217 are going about, and that the expense is largely increased. From what I know of local inquiries, and I have had considerable experience of them, and the delays and vexation of all kinds that are attendant upon them, I am not at all inclined towards them. If I may do so, I would suggest to my honourable Friend that he should withdraw his Amendment, as I think the local authorities can manage this matter very well without danger to the public interest. I think it would be very much better to allow the Bill to go through in the shape in which it is drawn.
§ DR. CLARKI have been trying very hard to understand this clause, but it is past my comprehension. It sets out a lot of other clauses of other Bills, and before one can understand what it is to do he must go through the clauses to which it refers and see what powers are provided. I have been trying to see what the effect of the Amendment would be, but I have not got an hour or two to spare to go down to the Library to look up the various Acts which this clause incorporates, and I confess, that without doing so the matter is quite beyond me, and I give it up as a hopeless conundrum.
§ SIR J. BRUNNER (Cheshire, Northwich)I am heartily glad to hear the honourable Gentleman refer to this clause in the manner in which he did, as I am of opinion that every Bill which is introduced into this House should be understanded of itself, and should not have any references to any previous Acts. I have repeated in this House a good many times the remarks of the noble Lord the head of the Government, whose help I regret we cannot have in this House with reference to this practice, and the advice he has given, upon this subject. He has said in another place that our methods of legislation in this particular are not a credit to us. I have repeated that in this. House very many times, but. I regret to say without a sign of repentance or amendment being shown by those who represent the country in this House. I consider the draughtsmanship of this Bill is neither a credit to the draughtsman nor to the—
*THE CHAIRMANOrder, order! The draughtsmanship of the clause is not now under consideration. The question which is under consideration is the Amendment of the honourable Gentleman.
§ SIR J. BRUNNERInstructed by you, Sir, I trust I shall keep in order for the rest of the short period I shall occupy the attention of the Committee upon this question. I am obliged to my honourable Friend below me for having moved this Amendment, because it has brought from the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board another acknowledgment that his Department is very much overworked, and he agrees with my honourable Friend the Member for Leicester that the local authorities might be left to manage this matter for themselves, and that the Local Government Board would do well to divest itself of work of that kind. I am not inclined to agree with the honourable Member for Leicester in his criticisms as to the Local Government Board inquiries concerned. I have attended a good many of them, and I have admired them very much, and I will say this for them, that they are, as compared with inquiries conducted before lawyers, very cheap, far cheaper, in point of fact, than any of that kind. I have nothing to say against their method or their procedure, but upon the merits of local government I certainly believe in the policy of letting the local authority conduct, its own affairs, and I hope this Amendment will not be pressed.
§ DR. TANNERIn connection with thia matter I cannot altogether understand what is the use of buying fire engines when the fire is alight or the house burned down. I am speaking merely in the interests of common humanity.
*THE CHAIRMANOrder, order! The honourable Member must confine himself to the Amendment before the Committee.
§ DR. TANNERThe clause provides for the purchase of fire engines, and includes powrer to agree with the council of any neighbouring borough or district. Now, I am taking the line that the fire engine would be absolutely at the demand of any particular district, I sincerely hope 219 every honourable Member will agree with me on this, merely to succour human life.
*THE CHAIRMANOrder, order! The honourable Member is not applying himself to the Amendment before the Committee, and I must call upon him to discontinue his speech.
§ DR. TANNERI appeal to you, Sir.
§ DR. TANNERI appeal to the Chair.
§ DR. TANNERThen I leave.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI regard this clause as a beneficial one—
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI should disagree. There are very few sections in Acts of Parliament less beneficial to lawyers than this particular section. The words are perfectly clear, and anyone can understand them. I simply rise in order to appeal to my honourable Friend, whose leadership I am glad to avow and follow as a rule, not to press this Amendment to a Division. I know something about the cost of local inquiries. As a rule they are conducted very efficiently and very economically, but however well and economically conducted there must always be a great deal of expense. I am not sure that these inquiries would not cost more than a fire engine, and that it would not be better for a parish to purchase an ergine for itself than bear the expense of an inquiry. I appeal to my honourable Friend not to press this matter to a Division.
§ COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY (Shropshire, Newport)I venture to give one reason to the Committee why this little Measure should be passed as rapidly as possible. In my own immediate neighbourhood one of the most beautiful and stately places in England was lately burned to the ground.
§ Question put.
§ Amendment negatived.
220
§
MR. CALDWELL moved—
Page 1, line 13, at end, insert—
And that the area of such parish, or such-part thereof as may be agreed upon, shall be included within the area to be served by such fire engines and appurtenances, the parish council paying a sum not less than such a proportion of the annual expense of the fire engines and appurtenances as the rental of such parish, or part thereof, as the case may be, bears to the rateable value of the total area to be served by such fire engines and appurtenances.
He said the object of the Amendment, was that the area outside the borough should be included in a district to be served by the fire engines.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that the Amendment would tie the hands of the parish councils. It would also be most, unfair that the rateable value of land should be taken into account when fixing the amount to be paid, and he thought it would be much better to leave such a small matter to the two councils making the contract.
§ MR. BROADHURSTI think my honourable Friend will not occupy the Committee in considering this Amendment at length. What my honourable Friend is concerned for is that parish councils should not have the use of the fire engines without paying above and beyond the cost of a particular service. If my honourable Friend were to insert this Amendment it would render the Bill inoperative, because a large charge at the commencement would make it impossible to apply.
§ MR. GODDARD (Ipswich)I hope my honourable Friend will not press this Amendment to a Division. It seems to me unnecessary. My honourable Friend seems to have a great fear that local authorities will leave their own districts in danger by allowing their fire engines to go outside their boundaries. My experience is that local bodies are particularly careful not to let their engines beyond the bounds unless they are properly remunerated. I hope my honourable Friend will not press the Amendment.
§ Question put.
§ Amendment negatived.
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§
MR. CALDWELL moved—
Page 1, line 18, at end, add—
We have taken into consideration that the inhabitants of every borough are entitled to have some protection in the case of fire breaking out in the borough. The object of getting contributions from outside the district is with a view to increasing the number of fire engines and improving the appliances. In the case of a borough with only one fire engine, it would be very hard on a ratepayer within the borough if the engine were three or four miles away when a fire broke out in his own house.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid if the Amendment were passed no one would take the risk involved.
§ Question put.
§ Amendment negatived.
§
Question put—
That this clause stand part of the Bill.
§ Agreed to.
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cc221-3
- CLAUSE 2. 486 words