HC Deb 22 February 1898 vol 53 cc1378-83

I beg to move that this House do meet to-morrow at Two of the clock.

MR. J. DALY (Monaghan, S.)

My reason for rising to oppose the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman is that a most important Bill with regard to Ireland, which stands in my name, is first in order of discussion to-morrow, and if the House does not meet until Two o'clock, it will considerably curtail the discussion of that most important Measure with regard to Ireland, dealing with the distress in the West. My Bill, if passed into law, will very considerably help to alleviate the distress in the West of Ireland. I do not intend to detain the House any length, but if the right hon. Gentleman insists on his Motion it will be my duty to ask my friends to support me in opposing it on the ground of the importance of the Bill of which I intend to move the second reading to-morrow.

MR. W. H. K. REDMOND (Clare, E.)

I think the appeal that has just been made by the hon. Gentleman who sits near me is one which the First Lord of the Treasury might take into consideration. It is not often that the Irish Members at this early period in the Session have favourable opportunities of introducing a Measure. It does seem a very hard thing that the hon. Gentleman has not been sufficiently fortunate to secure a good place for the consideration of his Bill, that it should be practically knocked on the head because of the proposal not to have the House meet until two o'clock to-morrow, instead of twelve. I do not for a moment cast the slightest doubt upon the solemn sense of religious observance held by hon. Gentlemen, but I submit there is plenty of time to do it up till twelve o'clock. The time from twelve till two could much more advantageously be spent in the discussion of a Bill which has the charitable and religious object of relieving distress. I certainly think this is a matter on which the First Lord of the Treasury ought to give an explanation.


This is a matter which belongs, in a particular degree, to the right hon. Gentleman. It is intensely an Irish matter, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Gentlemen who wish to attend Divine service are not prevented from doing so at all. But Irish Members will be prevented from having two hours' discussion on the Measure, simply because hon. Members choose to attend Divine service. Every one knows that it is usual on a Wednesday afternoon to sit for twenty minutes after prayers, while that formidable functionary, the Serjeant-at-Arms, goes and hunts up in the library and tea rooms in order to bring in hon. Members. Such will not be the case to-morrow. Those other benches may be empty, but we could form a quorum ouselves. This is for a Christian and philanthropic object, and I would not mind discussing the matter even on the Sabbath day itself. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. I cannot boast, like him, of being an accomplished theologian and an amateur apostle, and I have never addressed a Church congress. If ever there was a matter of his own policy, this belongs to it, and I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw his Motion.


It would be quite impossible for an even more stony-hearted person than myself to refuse to make some reply to the impassioned appeal of the hon. Member. He says the Bill is of a Christian and philanthropic character, but everybody who is keenly interested in a Measure always thinks it a Christian and philanthropic Measure, and certainly we on this Bench cannot exalt ourselves into judges as to the comparative amount of Christianity and philanthropy to which a Bill brought in may justly lay claim. I do not think there is any grievance, for the authors of it have not been fortunate in the ballot, and the only reason that they were able to get this Wednesday, was that those who had been more fortunate in the ballot knew that the first two hours of debate would be cut off by the immemorial practice of Ash Wednesday. Had the whole day been given by Parlialiamentary usage to the discussion of the Bill on Ash Wednesday, this Bill would probably not have come on at all during the whole of the Session, or at such a period when there would have been a chance of its becoming law. It is not necessary that I should enter into a general discussion of this Motion. If you are to continue the traditions and practice of this House, from which I do not understand the hon. Gentleman dissents, you cannot make exceptions on Ash Wednesdays on account of the particular character of a Bill. Either abandon the rule altogether—which I am not prepared to recommend the House to do — or carry it out continually, legitimately, and logically, without fear and without favour.

MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)

May I ask a question on a point of order? As I understand hon. Gentleman are determined to go to church to-morrow, I see no reason why they should not be later with their dinners. Would it be in order to suspend the Standing Order which obliges us to close our discussion at half-past five?


Any such Motion must be made by a Member of the Government.

The Speaker then put the Question.

Motion made, and Question put, That this House do meet To-morrow at Two of the clock."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

The House divided:—Ayes 215, Noes 121.—(Division List appended.)

Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Galloway, William Johnson Milner, Sir Frederick George
Arrol, Sir William Garfit, William Milward, Colonel Victor
Ascroft, Robert Gibbons, J. Lloyd Monckton, Edward Philip
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Giles, Charles Tyrrell Monk, Charles James
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Gilliat, John Saunders More, Robert Jasper
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Goldsworthy, Major-General Morrell, George Herbert
Baden-Powell, Sir Geo. Smyth Gordon, Hon. John Edward Mount, William George
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Mowbray, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Bailey, James (Walworth) Graham, Henry Robert Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Gr'hm (Bute)
Baird, Jno. Geo. Alexander Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsb'y) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Baldwin, Alfred Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Gretton, John Myers, William Henry
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald (Leeds) Greville, Captain Newdigate, Francis Alex.
Banbury, Frederick George Gull, Sir Cameron Nicol, Donald Ninian
Barnes, Frederick Gorell Halsey, Thomas Frederick Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford
Bartley, George C. T. Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Penn, John
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W. Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Horace Curz'n
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Ben. Hanson, Sir Reginald Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bris.) Hare, Thomas Leigh Pryce-Jones, Edward
Beckett, Ernest William Haslett, Sir James Horner Purvis, Robert
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Heath, James Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Bethell, Commander Helder, Augustus Renshaw, Charles Bine
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Rentoul, James Alexander
Biddulph, Michael Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arth'r (Down) Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir Matthew W.
Bigwood, James Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley (Staffs.) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstd.) Robinson, Brooke
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh Round, James
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Royds, Clement Molyneux
Brookfield, A. Montagu Howard, Joseph Russell, Sir George (Berks.)
Carlile, William Walter Howell, William Tudor Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward Howorth, Sir Henry Hoyle Samuel, Harry S.
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hozier, Hon. Jas. Hy. Cecil Saunderson, Col. Edw. Jas.
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Savory, Sir Joseph
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Seeley, Charles Hilton
Cochrane, Hon. Thamas H. A. E. Jenkins, Sir John Jones Seton-Karr, Henry
Coddington, Sir William Johnston, William (Belfast) Sharp, William Edward T.
Coghill, Douglas Harry Johnstone, John H. (Sussex) Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfr'w.)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Kemp, George Simcon, Sir Barrington
Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready Kenrick, William Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarsh.)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Kenyon, James Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Kimber, Henry Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)
Cox, Robert King, Sir Henry Seymour Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cranborne, Viscount Knowles, Lees Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cripps, Charles Alfred Lafone, Alfred Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Laurie, Lieut.-General Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Currie, Sir Donald Lawrence, Sir Ed. (Cornwall) Stone, Sir Benjamin
Curzon, Rt. Hn. G. N. (Lanc S. W.) Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpl.) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Curzon, Viscount (Bucks.) Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Ed. H. Thorburn, Walter
Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Thornton, Percy M.
Dalkeith, Earl of Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Denny, Colonel Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpl.) Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir Jno. P. Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Waring, Col. Thomas
Dorington, Sir John Edward Lowe, Francis William Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Doxford, William Theodore Lucas-Shadwell, William Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Drage, Geoffrey Macdona, John Cumming Williams, Joseph Powell (Birm.)
Drucker, A. Maclean, James Mackenzie Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Maclure, Sir John William Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)
Edwards, Gen. Sir Jas. Bevan M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Wodehouse, Edmond R. (Bath)
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Mncr.) M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Finch, George H. M'Ewan, William Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Finlay, Sir Rbt. Bannatyne M'Iver, Sir Lewis Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Firbank, Joseph Thomas Malcolm, Ian Younger, William
Fisher, William Hayes Maple, Sir John Blundell
Fison, Frederick William Martin, Richard Biddulph TELLERS FOR THE AYES
FitzGerald, Sir R. U. Penrose Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Fletcher, Sir Henry Mellor, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Yorks.)
Flower, Ernest Milbank, Powlett Chas. John
Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) Gilhooly, James Nussey, Thomas Willans
Allan, William (Gateshead) Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Allen, Wm. (Newc.-under-L.) Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary)
Allison, Robert Andrew Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Ambrose, Robert (Mayo, W.) Hayden, John Patrick O'Kelly, James
Asher, Alexander Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Paulton, James Mellor
Atherley-Jones, L. Hazell, Walter Pinkerton, John
Baker, Sir John Healy, Timothy M. (N. Louth) Pirie, Captain Duncan
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H. Price, Robert John
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Birrell, Augustine Holburn, J. G. Redmond, Jno. E. (Waterford)
Blake, Edward Holden, Angus Redmond, William (Clare)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Humphrey-Owen, Arthur C. Reid, Sir Robert T.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Jacoby, James Alfred Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Burt, Thomas Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Ed. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Joicey, Sir James Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Caldwell, James Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea) Souttar, Robinson
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Jordan, Jeremiah Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Carew, James Laurence Kearley, Hudson E. Stevenson, Francis S.
Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- Kilbride, Denis Strachey, Edward
Causton, Richard Knight Kitson, Sir James Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Cawley, Frederick Lambert, George Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)
Clancy, John Joseph Leng, Sir John Tennant, Harold John
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Lloyd-George, David Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Clough, Walter Owen Logan, John William Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)
Colville, John Lough, Thomas Tully, Jasper
Condon, Thomas Joseph Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Wallace, Robert (Perth)
Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leonard H. Lyell, Sir Leonard Wayman, Thomas
Crean, Eugene MacAleese, Daniel Wedderburn, Sir William
Curran, Thos. B. (Donegal) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Weir, James Galloway
Dalziel, James Henry M'Cartan, Michael Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Davitt, Michael M'Donnell, Dr. M. A. (Queen's C.) Williams, Jno. Carvell (Notts.)
Dillon, John M'Ghee, Richard Wilson, Jno. (Durham, Mid.)
Donelan, Captain A. M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.) Wilson, John (Govan)
Doogan, P. C. M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim) Woodall, William
Ellis, Thos. Ed. (Merionethsh.) M'Kenna, Reginald Woods, Samuel
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Maddison, Fred. Young, Samuel.
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Finucane, John Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Flavin, Michael Joseph Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Mr. Patrick O'Brien and Mr. Daly.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Murnaghan, George
Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Hy. (Wol'tn) Norton, Capt. Cecil William