DEPORTATION OF PAUPERS TO IRELAND. (Hansard, 18 February 1898)

§ MR. JAMES DALY (Monaghan, S.)
Mr. Speaker,—I beg to move the following Amendment to the Gracious Address of Her Majesty the Queen— And we humbly represent to Your Majesty the great regret of this House that no reference has been made in Your Majesty's Speech regarding a Bill to discontinue the deportation of paupers from Great Britain to Ireland. Sir, this is a very old grievance. It is a grievance that Irish Members have had to bring before this House for the last 50 years. Irish representatives have to complain of their poor, who live in this country, not being treated in the same way as the English or Scotch poor. Twelve months ago I moved an Amendment on the same subject, and at that time the Chief Secretary for Ireland promised that he would try and secure a conference of the Local Government Boards of England, Scotland, and Ireland. The Local Government Boards of England and Ireland were willing to hold a conference on this subject, but the Local Government Board of Scotland refused. The result was that this matter, which should have been decided years ago, has been left undecided yet. I see the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate for Scotland in this House, and I hope he has repented and will be able to make a statement to the effect that he will bring 1146 the Local Government Boards together, so that means may be devised for dealing with the case of these paupers. Sir, in the matter of this grievance I have the support of all political parties in Ireland, and a question on which Irish Members think alike should not be difficult of settlement. Not only are the Irish, but last June, when I brought forward this question on the salary of the Lord Advocate for Scotland, both Scotch and English Members, Liberal and Conservative, agreed that it was time this grievance was settled. Sir, I feel obliged to hon. Members on both sides of the House for their sympathy, and I am sure that this is a matter the Government will have no difficulty in settling if only they take it in earnest. It strikes me as very strange that, while the Local Government Boards for England and Ireland were anxious to settle this matter, the Local Government Board for Scotland should object. But, Mr. Speaker, it is only when an Irish grievance comes before the House that a difficulty exists amongst Her Majesty's Government in finding some means of legislating to settle it, no matter how great the grievance may be But I do not intend to labour this question. I hope the Government will find some means of settlement, or give some expression of opinion, that a Bill will be introduced to settle this long-standing grievance. It has existed for over 50 years. In 1853, so great was the grievance in England itself, that the Government of the day promised that, if returned at the next General Election, they would bring 1147 in a Bill to deal with the question as regards the settlement of paupers in England and Wales. The Government—it was a Liberal Government—was returned to power, and a Bill was introduced to deal with the settlement of paupers in this country. The Irish Members were anxious that Irish paupers should be included in this Bill, but the Government declined, and the Bill was limited to England and Wales. Sir, when justice is to be done to Ireland, large majorities are to be found to vote down the claims of that country, and it is not surprising that, in 1853, a Liberal Government should pass a Bill in this House to deal with the settlement of paupers in England and Wales, and would not settle the same question with regard to Ireland. Now, Sir, I think that Irishmen have been long enough kept in the cold with regard to this question. I think this Government has promised a Bill on this subject would be one of the Measures to be introduced. In 1896 I moved for a Return in this House with regard to the deportation of paupers sent back from Scotland to Ireland. I moved for that Return on account of a statement by a pauper who was sent back, that a single attendant had to look after 32 of these poor creatures. This is not a hearsay case. The pauper, an old man, 60 or 70 years of age, made a declaration to that effect, and I have no doubt that a man of that age would not make any but a truthful declaration. The old man was also under the impression, from what he heard amongst these unfortunate creatures, that several were inclined to jump overboard rather than come back to Ireland to be charged upon the rates. Sir, it is an intolerable disgrace that a man who has spent 40 or 50 years in Scotland, helping to build up the country by his labour, should, when he gets old, and obliged to enter the workhouse, be sent by the authorities back to Ireland to be charged upon the rates of a country to which he has never contributed a penny by his industry. I hope to see this grievance remedied this Sessions. The First Lord of the Treasury, to whom I wrote last Session, promised that he would give this matter his consideration. I hope he has, and that the Government will be prepared to bring in a Bill to stop this great grievance of the Irish ratepayers.

§ MR. GEORGE MURNAGHAN (Tyrone, Mid)
I beg to second the Amendment of the hon. Member for Monaghan. After a period of 44 years representatives from Ireland stand on the floor of this House to make a demand that was acceded to by the Government of 1853, and hon. Gentlemen may sneer, and they may laugh, and they may think that it is all very well for the Irish representatives to come here and have a field day occasion ally to ventilate their grievances; they can be put off with a few sweet words to the effect that the matter will be attended to during the Session. "We admit," they say, "that the grievance is great, and that the hardship must be re moved; and we will try and see what we can do to remove it." Sir, the Chief Secretary for Ireland declared in this House that this was a real Irish grievance. On the 24th February, 1854, the Irish representatives in this House were told by the Government of the day that the treatment of Ireland in regard to the deportation of paupers, was an in justice and a hardship, and that it was the intention of the Government at no distant day to remove that hardship. Sir, that day is still distant; it has been distant since 1854. Hon. Gentlemen ought to be ashamed to declare that they cannot legislate for Irish grievances. Either they cannot or they will not; it must be one or the other, because here is a grievance, and it has been allowed to be unsettled for almost half a century. Now the Chief Secretary can turn to his colleagues, and smile, and laugh, and say: "Is it not very amusing for the Member for Mid Tyrone to use these words in this House?" Sir, I consider it my duty to use these words. I consider I have no apology to make to the Chief Secretary for Ireland, or to the Lord Advocate for Scotland, or to any other Minister in giving voice to what is admittedly a grievance of, and hardship upon the people of Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman may say that this is a small matter; but I maintain that it is a considerable matter, and a most considerable hardship. You have, for the last 50 years, been deporting from Scotland, and sending to Ireland, men who have spent their days in labouring and toiling in your fields and in your workshops. You consider it is right that you should get rid of them in their old age, 1149 and send them to the workhouses in Ireland, where they may spend the remainder of their days, far from the associations formed in recent years. It is a hardship, not only upon the ratepayers of Ireland, but upon these poor people, to remove them from their families and associations, and bury them within the walls of workhouses in Ireland. I want to hear from the Lord Advocate to-night your expressions of opinion as to what he is going to do. I do not think my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment will do his full duty if he is satisfied with taking what I took last year, a sympathetic promise to see the Scotch Local Government Board, and try if something cannot be arranged. What is the Chief Secretary there for? Sir, I would not undertake a business I could not manage. I am a humbler man than the Chief Secretary for Ireland, but I would not make a promise I could not keep. The Chief Secretary for Ireland promised a thing and has not done it. This is not a subject for laughter—it is a matter of serious importance. You and your predecessors for 50 years have admitted the grievance and therefore, I say the present Unionist Government, with its great majority does not amount to anything, in my opinion, if it cannot settle this question. Sir, the Government has made no step in advance; they are satisfied to put in their six or seven years of office without any working. The hon. Member for South Tyrone may laugh. I have as good a right to speak here as he has; I was returned by a majority almost ten times as large, and I am doing my duty here—I am advocating the removal of a grievance, and I ask the Lord Advocate to give some expression to the views of the Government in this matter.

§ MR. SPEAKER
put the Amendment.

§ THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GRAHAM MURRAY,) Buteshire
The hon. Member who moved the Amendment put forward the Scottish Office as the head and front of the offending party in this matter, and I gather from the remarks of the hon. Member for Mid Tyrone that he takes the same view. I am not altogether able to reconcile that view with the declarations of the Member for Mid 1150 Tyrone that this shows how impotent this Parliament was to deal with Irish grievances; because what was wanted was an Amendment in the law of Scotland. I leave it to the hon. Member that if, as he says, he would not have a business unless he could run it, how, in a Parliament for Ireland, he proposes to amend the law of Scotland. But I am not here to ask apologies or to give one. I am quite able to defend the actions of the Scottish Office in refusing to go into conference on this subject with the Local Government Board of England and the Local Government Board of Ireland. Of course the Scotch Board could only have gone in on terms of equal representation. In this matter, the Scotch Board acts only in accordance with its own law, and we did not think it was proper for the people of Scotland to submit their laws of settlement to the practical arbitration of the laws of England and Ireland.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)
The three countries are run by Scotchmen.

§ MR. GRAHAM MURRAY
The hon. Member for Mid Tyrone says that in June the Government promised to do what it could in this matter. Well, Sir, following that promise, the Secretary for Scotland appointed a departmental committee of experts to deal with the subject, and, of course, with the general matter, connected with the Scotch case, because it is evident we cannot deal with the subject referred to in the Amendment entirely alone; it would necessitate certain alterations in the Law of Settlement in Scotland. Sir, I am able to inform the hon. Member that, upon the report of that Departmental Committee, we have framed a Bill which is not in the pigeonhole. I have seen it, and read it, and, although I do not say it does everything the hon. Member for Mid Tyrone would wish, yet I think it thoroughly removes any legitimate grievance in this matter. That Bill, I hope, if the progress of business allows, at no very distant day, to have the opportunity of submitting to the House, I believe when we do so, it will be found that, having due regard to public opinion in Scotland, we shall have mitigated the grievances about the deportation of paupers. I hope hon. Members on both sides will be satisfied.

§ MR. W. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.)
Sir, I desire to inform the House that this is a question upon which Irish Members on both sides are in perfect accord with the hon. Members from Monaghan and Tyrone. I hope we shall not have this matter put off for another Session. I am sure there will be no opposition from any Irish representative, and I trust the Lord Advocate will see his way to introduce the Bill on a very early date.

§ MR. DALY
After the very satisfactory reply of the Lord Advocate, I beg to withdraw my Amendment. I trust the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate will introduce this Bill as soon as possible.