HC Deb 01 August 1898 vol 63 cc759-61

(Second Reading.)

Amendment proposed— Page 2, line 43, leave out the word 'including.' and insert the word 'excluding.'"—(Mr. Doogan.)

* MR. DOOGAN

The first three Amendments are on the Paper by mistake, as they were accepted by the Government on Saturday. My object in moving this Amendment is to provide for the next Amendment, and, instead of the cost of carriage of seeds, spraying machines, and spraying material being placed upon the rates, which are abnormally high, and must be paid by the poorest of the poor, I desire that it should be paid out of the Church Temporalities Fund. I think the Attorney General will see that these distressed people should be provided with this relief loan as cheaply as possible.

MR. ATKINSON

It is perfectly impossible for me to accept this Amend- ment. The guardians charge no more to the persons supplied with the material than it costs, and they merely wish to recoup themselves, and sell at such a sum as will just cover the original cost of the article plus the interest on capital. I do not know whether the honourable Member is aware that in the distressed districts to which he alludes, materials have been supplied for nothing to all persons engaged in the relief works. It is obvious that the cost must be paid from somewhere. I do not know how or where the honourable Member has discovered that the Irish Church Temporalities Fund is going to assist him, for it is already mortgaged up to its full value and there is no money coming from it at all. I must, therefore, object to the proposed Amendment, because I think that it is only right that the guardians should sell the materials to the persons applying for them at such a rate as will cover the cost.

* MR. DOOGAN

Is the right honourable Gentleman not aware that already provision has been made for certain payments to the Board of Works out of the Irish Church Temporalities Fund under Clause 2, sub-section 3, of the Bill.

MR. DILLON

I think it is perfectly clear that the Attorney General has shown by the first part of his argument that he has not read his own Bill. He has trotted this Measure out as giving the most extraordinary benefits to these unions in Ireland at the expense of the British Treasury. The fact is, that the British Treasury is safeguarded from any loss whatever. Now, while the Attorney General has just informed us that it is quite impossible to put any additional charge upon the Church Temporalities Fund, because it is mortgaged to more than it can provide for, we see in subsection 2 it is provided— Such loan shall be repayable by the guardians to the board of works by two equal instalments. And it goes on to say— The interest at the rate of two and three-quarters per cent. per annum on such loan, or on so much as is for the time being not repaid, shall be paid by equal half-yearly payments to the Board of Works out of the Irish Church Temporalities Fund.

MR. ATKINSON

But that is only a temporary arrangement.

MR. DILLON

Well, it provides for payments out of a fund which has no assets whatever. The Amendment of my honournble Friend is a very small matter, find I am sorry that the Attorney General does not see his way to accept it. I think the cost of the carriage of these sprayers ought to be borne by the same fund. Of course, the whole justification for this Measure, and the only justification for this Measure at all, is that these districts are in a very exceptional state of distress, and that the rates are very high. If that were not so, the Government would not be justified in bringing in this Measure at all. Now, that being the case, I think that there is a good deal to be said in favour of the Amendment.

MR. W. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.)

I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that these materials have been carried free to all parts of Ireland by the railway companies this year, and I think it is very likely that the railway companies will again extend their generosity next year. There is no reason whatever why the same arrangements cannot be carried out next year. This Amendment, in my opinion, is perfectly unnecessary as regards spraying machines.

Question put.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment proposed—

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