HC Deb 18 March 1897 vol 47 cc983-7

"This Act shall continue in force for three years after the 31st day of March next after the passing thereof and no longer, unless continued by Parliament."

He was prompted to move this limitation by reason of the fact that a large portion of the Bill was of a purely experimental character. It was impossible to tell at present how the associations would work. It was difficult to know to what extent they would be formed, or whether, when formed, they would be able to work in such a manner as to command the confidence, on the one hand, of the Education Department, and, on the other, of the country. It was also difficult to foresee the way in which the voluntary character of the schools would be maintained. It was quite certain that, in regard to the schools affected by the abolition of the 17s. 6d. limit, the subscriptions would be very materially reduced. But unless some definite term were prescribed for the termination of the Act, it would be practically impossible to raise the question again by way of legislation. The House was so overburdened with work that once an important question like the Voluntary Schools question was legislated upon, it was bound to remain quiescent for many years unless the operation of the Act was limited to a certain period.

Clause read the First time.

On the Motion "That the Clause be read a Second time,"

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,) Isle of Wight

said he did not agree with the contention of the hon. Gentleman that this Bill was in the nature of an experiment, but he would point out that nothing worse could be done to prevent an experiment having a fair trial than that it should be stated in the first instance that the whole thing would be ripped up in a few years and become again the subject of discussion. He could not help thinking that the hon. Gentleman had overlooked one initial fact which had been admitted on both sides of the House. Though it was quite true that a few scattered Members had expressed their detestation of the Voluntary system, and that if they had their way there would be only Board Schools in the country, at least two distinguished occupants of the Front Opposition Bench had stated more than once that though they thought, when the Board School system was established, the Voluntary Schools would have gradually dropped out of existence, they had been forced to the conviction that the Voluntary Schools were an essential and integral part of our educational system, and that the country had distinctly decided so at the last General Election. Therefore, to limit the operation of the Bill to three years in order that the question might be again discussed, would be very unfair to the Voluntary Schools, which had been proved to require aid from the State. The hon. Gentleman knew that aid to the necessitous Board Schools formed part of the scheme of the Government, and that a Bill to that effect would be introduced when the state of things allowed it. Would the hon. Gentleman propose that the Board Schools should be subjected to the same experimental arrangement? The hon. Gentleman had said that as a result of the Bill the subscriptions to Voluntary Schools would fall off. The Government held a distinct conviction to the contrary. When the Voluntary Schools were less handicapped by the competition of the Board Schools, there would be an increased inducement to Churchmen to subscribe liberally in order to make the secular part of the education of the Voluntary Schools more efficient than it was at the present time. Unless there was a special reason for it, Parliament never inserted a time limit in a Bill, and there was no subject to which they should be slower to apply such a provision than the subject of primary education.

MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS (Notts,) Mansfield

said he had not supposed that this Amendment would commend itself to the Government any more than any of the numerous Amendments which had been already moved; but he had a conviction that this Amendment would be regarded with great favour throughout the country by the real friends of education, no matter what might be their political opinions. He supported the Amendment because the Bill was admitedly a very incomplete Bill. It was also full of vague phrases mid ambiguous provisions; and what was lacking in it had not been supplied in the discussions by the Government; indeed, the greater the desire for information on the part of the Opposition in regard to doubtful points the greater was the alacrity of the Government in having recourse to the Closure. That brought hint to his second point, which was that the Bill had been forced through Committee—

THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. GRANT LAWSON)

Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is not in order in discussing his dissatisfaction with the proceedings in Committee.

MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS

said that what was to be said on that point would have to be said on another occasion. He would therefore pass to another reason in support of the Amendment. The First Lord of the Treasury had admitted that the association scheme was quite experimental, and though the right hon. Gentleman was very sanguine as to its results, a large number of educationalists, Churchmen as well as Nonconformists, regarded it with grave misgiving. Another reason in favour of the Amend- ment was that the Bill involved the solution of very critical and difficult questions by the Education Department. He would be surprised if, after the lapse of a short time, the authors of the Bill proved to be altogether satisfied with their handiwork. No one was quite satisfied with the Measure except the Members of the Government. Hon. Members opposite were not satisfied with it. [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] They had spoken of it in terms of absolute contempt; and out of doors the Bill had met with a degree of opposition on the part of Nonconformists, Churchmen, and educationalists which Measures of this House had not commonly to encounter. For these reasons, and others he might name, he suggested that the Government should follow the precedent they themselves set in the case of the Agricultural Rating Bill, by limiting the operation of the Bill to three years.

MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.)

said that the Leader of the House himself had admitted that the clause of the Bill dealing with associations, to which he attached most importance, must be experimental; and the noble Lord the Member for Rochester had described the Measure as vague, as an earthwork hastily thrown up for the defence of the Voluntary Schools, as a temporary Measure, and so forth. It was true that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose had said that the Voluntary Schools were an essential portion of our elementary educational system, but he did not say drat the provisions of this Bill dealing with compulsory association were an essential portion of our elementary educational system. Amongst the clergy there was a great deal of opposition to the compulsory association clause, and indeed generally there was every disposition to treat the present proposals as of a temporary nature. With regard to the distribution of the grant, questions must crop up in the course of the next three years which would give rise to friction. Difficulty must surround the fixing of the different rates for town and country. There was the question whether the areas were to be large or small, and only the other day the Leader of the House said it was impossible for anyone to foretell how the abolition of the 17s. 6d. limit would operate. For these and other reasons he heartily supported the Amendment. It seemed to him that one of the effects of a three years' limit would be absolutely salutary. It would cause managers of schools to see that the voluntary subscriptions were not reduced but increased, and it would create the keenest desire on their part to maintain the efficiency of the schools.

MR. D. F. GODDARD (Ipswich)

did not think the Amendment could be opposed on the score of unreasonableness. Everyone would admit that the Bill had a good many novel features. For that reason alone it was desirable there should be some limit to its operation, or some opportunity of reconsidering its methods in a few years. Voluntary Schools had hitherto been recognised as elementary schools, but now, for the first time, they were to be recognised as denominational schools. For that reason, too, some limit should be placed on the operation of the Measure. The Attorney General had said it was not usual to put a limit upon legislation. [The ATTORNEY GENERAL: "No."] Surely there was a very recent and wise precedent for the admission of a clause like this in the Agricultural Rating Bill of last year.

[The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS in the Chair.]

Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The Committee divided: —Ayes, 63; Noes, 198.—(Division List, No. 132.)

MR. J. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)

moved the following new clause:—