HC Deb 31 July 1897 vol 52 cc45-7

(1.) Section eighteen of The Judicature (Ireland) Act 1877, is hereby repealed (save as to the salaries of the existing Judges which still remain as if this Act had not passed).

(2.) There shall be paid to Judges appointed after the commencement of this Act the following salaries, which shall in each case include any pension to which the Judge may be entitled in respect of any public office previously filled by him. (a) To the Vice Chancellor; To the Lord Chief Justice; To the Lords Justices of Appeal; To the Master of the Rolls the sum of three thousand five hundred pounds a-year each; (b) To each of the other judges of the High Court of Justice the sum of two thousand four hundred pounds a-year.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

said he would advise hon. Members to compare the Irish Bench in respect of number and salaries with the Scotch Bench. It had been suggested that the number of Judges, should be settled in proportion to population, but that was impossible. Under this Bill there would be 17 Judges in Ireland, including the Land Commission Judge and the Judge of the Land Court. In Scotland, with a smaller population, the number of Judges was 13, and if the two Judges of the Courts in Ireland he had mentioned, which did not exist in Scotland, were subtracted from the 17 Irish Judges, there remained 15 Judges in Ireland, against 13 in Scotland. As regarded salaries, all the Judges in Scotland were in receipt of salaries of not less than £3,600, and in Scotland no superior Judge was in receipt of a salary so low as that of a Puisne Judge in Ireland.

MR. DILLON

pointed out that there was a Lord Chancellor of Ireland who drew £8,000 a year, and who, if he retired from office, after even only three or four months' service, still received £4,000 a year. The Irish Members held that this was a very insufficient Measure. It merely touched the fringe of the question. He hoped that some more pure-minded Government than the present—[ironical laughter]—would take in hand the important question of the corruption of the Irish Bar and the over-paying of the Irish Bench.

MR. DAVITT

said that, while Ireland had 17 Judges, Scotland had only 13. Ireland paid in Judges' salaries and law costs £49,000 a year, and he questioned whether Scotland had to pay as much. Besides, Scotland had its own judicial system. The Judges were not political hacks, but were men in sympathy with the feelings of the Scotch people.

DR. CLARK

That is not so. [Laughter.]

MR. DAVITT

said that of course he should bow to the opinion of a Scotch Member on the point. He doubted that the Scotch Judges were as bad in those respects as the Irish Judges, but if they were the people of Scotland had his sincere sympathy.

MR. FLYNN

pointed out that in Belgium, a self-governing country, there were only 15 Judges, the combined salaries of whom amounted to only £6,000, while in Ireland they had to pay £8,000 for the Lord Chancellor alone.

DR. CLARK

said that ten years ago the Scotch Bench was, in the matter of salaries, levelled up to the Irish Bench; and very properly so, for the salaries of the Scotch Judges were so low that men at the Bar were doing better than the Judges.

Motion made and Question put, "That the clause be Read a Second time."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 25; Noes, 101.—(Division List, No. 358.)

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next.