HC Deb 28 July 1897 vol 51 cc1383-8

This Act may be cited as the Archdeaconry of London (Additional Endowment) Act 1897.

Question proposed, "That Clause 1, stand part of the Bill."

MR. T. M. HEALY

moved "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again." They were told that these English and Scotch Bills were practically non-contentious, but he never heard yet of any non-contentious Bill with regard to Ireland. If a non-contentious Bill for Ireland did pass through that House, it was killed elsewhere. ["Hear, hear!"] The Government had no right to pick and choose what legislation they should pass. He was sure that a number of the proposals in this and other Bills were excellent, but that House was simply a receiving office for English and Scotch business. The -Irish might knock at the door, but they practically got nothing whatever. They had had Irish non-contentious Bills in that house, but they had never been able to get them through the House of Lords, and it was high tune the Government gave them facilities for obtaining Irish legislation so that when a Measure had unanimously passed the Commons they should not find the Prime Minister getting up in the House of Lords and objecting to its passing there. This was a question of reprisal, and it was time that the Irish members showed the Government that they would not allow their Bills to be kicked out, of that and another place without taking some satisfaction. ["Hear, hear!"]

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

hoped the hon. Gentleman would not persevere with the Motion, which he had admitted was not based upon the particular merits of the question, but on the general view of what he called a reprisal. When the hon. Gentleman complained of the lack of Irish legislation he would remind him that there had been passed that very afternoon a Bill which was entirely for the benefit of one district in Ireland—namely, the Wicklow Harbour (Advances) Bill. That was a measure which might have been stopped had any English or Scotch Member objected to it being taken after Twelve o'clock at night in its previous stages, but he was glad to say that no such step was taken. ["Hear, hear!"] Speaking for the Government, and also, he believed, for the House at large, he could say there was not the slightest desire to mete out to Irish legislation any different measure to that which was accorded English legislation. ["Hear, hear!"] The three or four Bills which had been put down as Government business were non-contentious in the sense that the vast majority of the House were in favour of them as against a very small minority and until the hon. Gentleman could point to an Irish Bill answering that description which hail been nut with obstruction by English or Scotch Members he would not have made out a case. ["Hear, hear!"] It was undesirable, in the interest of I Ireland as well as of the House, that the pokey of reprisal which the hon. Member had sketched out should be adopted. ["Hear, hear!"]

MR. T. M. HEALY

observed that the right hon. Gentleman had said that one Irish Bill had passed the House this Session. Sonic 103 Irish Members were brought across the sea, and as a result of a year's labour they bound a Bill introduced to lower the Wicklow Harbour Loan from four to three-and-a-half per cent. interest or something of that sort. They had been there from the month of January last, and that would be the resell with which they would go back to Ireland in the Jubilee year of Her Majesty, after a 60 years' reign. To suppose that with the merest tinpot Parliament in Ireland they could not have done better for their country than pass suck a piece of legislation was the greatest absurdity. The time had come when a stand must be made against this system, and as it would be no hardship for the English Members to wait, another year for this Bill he must persist in his Motion.

MR. ALEAN GIBBS

May I appeal to the hon. Member to withdraw his Motion.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Not a bit.

MR. ALBAN GIBBS

said if this Bill were not passed the result would he that the gentleman affected by it would remain without his salary for another year as he had done for many years past.

Question put "that the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit main."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 24; Noes, 99.—(Division List, No. 342.)

MR. T. M. HEALY

thought the time had come when a Motion that the Chairman leave the Chair was a proper, regular and usual one to make. It had been a long and weary sitting, during which much legislation had passed, and it should be remembered that the House had been sitting very late for several nights past. This was not Government business, and the pledge given by the First Lord of the Treasury—he was not in the habit of giving pledges lightly, and certainly he had never known him break them—the pledge given by the First Lord was that if any of these private Members' Bills were seriously objected to he would mot persist with them. He had two objections to this bill, it had not, been starred, making it, distinctly it Government, Bill, and on this point he had no wish to depart from the sense of the Speaker's ruling, and in the second place his suspicions were aroused the unusually long preamble to the and a most unusual amount of verbiage was employed to recommend it to the House. With the merits of the Bill, however, he did not now propose to deal, he would be prepared to do that when forced to consider it. That archdeacon was one who exercised archdeacon functions was a definition he was not prepared to dispute, but he was prepared to dispute the proposition that this was an unopposed private Member's Bill. It was nothing of the kind, and for the Government to attempt to force it through would be a distinct breach of agreement. It was not Government lousiness, and Irish Members would not assist in promoting legislation while they were denied a share for their Own country. On these grounds he moved "that the Chairman do now leave the Chair."

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

I do not accept that, Motion. The Committee has just decided by a very considerable majority that Progress shall not be reported, and therefore Clause I will be proceeded with.

MR. H. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

said he was opposed to every species of religious endowment, and therefore he looked with suspicion—

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

The hon. Member must confine himself to the question that Clause 1 stand part of the Bill.

MR. LABOUCHERE

said the clause seemed to him to be the very bottom of the Bill. There were twelve parts of a certain sum devoted at the present moment—

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

This has nothing to do with Clause 1.

MR. T. M. HEALY

said it seemed to him the Bill was very unfortunately named. The clause declared the Act should be cited as "The Archdeaconry of London (Additional Endowments) Act 1897." This was an unfortunate title, for in connection with the preamble it should be the "Rev. William Hale Hale's Additional Endowments Bill"; it dealt with the claims of a particular individual. If it was a subject in which the Church of England was concerned then let it have a larger, fuller title, that the House might be seized of its importance. The title was a bad one, and required explanation.

MR. DALY

said he was bound to confess he had little knowledge of Archdeacons, and he could assure the Committee he had not one among his constituents. [Laughter.]

*THE CHAIRMAN or WAYS AND MEANS

The hon. Member is not speaking to the clause.

MR. DALY

said the Government or whoever had charge of the Bill should offer some explanation of the clause.

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

again rend tided the hon. Member that his remarks were not relevant to the clause.

MR. DALY

said it was never anticipated that the Bill would be brought on at this unusual hour.

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

The hon. Member is not speaking to the clause.

MR. DALY

said he would move an Amendment.

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

The clause only cites the short title of the Bill. I must request the hon. Member to resume his seat.

Question put "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

MR. D. CRILLY (Mayo, N.)

said he would move an Amendment to the clause.

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

I have put the question that the clause stand part.

Question put, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 90; Noes, 24.—(Division List, No. 313).

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

said he did not think the House was in a condition to go on with any further business, and he should not resist any motion to report progress.

MR. LABOUCHERE

asked whether this Bill was going to be taken again. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that, apart from the view entertained by the hon. and learned Member for Louth, there was very strong objection to the Bill on principle. [Ministerial laughter.] They thoroughly objected to one shilling being taken from funds at present devoted to the maintenance of the fabric of St. Paul's and given to the salary of an Archdeacon.

M R. LOUGH

could not but think that the hon. Member for Northampton was somewhat late in raising his objection to the Bill. [Ministerial cheers.] The Bill had been discussed several times during the Session, and they had arrived at a common understanding which he was sorry they could not carry out. He thought, however, the right hon. Gentleman had adopted a wise course in arranging to adjourn the matter now. He hoped that better counsels would prevail next time the Bill came before the House.

MR. T. M. HEALY

said his great fear was lest this Bill should be rejected afterwards in the House of Lords. [Laughter.]

Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again on Friday.