HC Deb 28 July 1897 vol 51 cc1374-7

Considered in Committee.

MR. T. LOUGH (Islington, W.)

thought that the money might be got at a cheaper rate by the local authorities, and he suggested 2½ instead of 2¾. He begged to move to leave out ¾ in order to insert ½.


reminded the hon. Member that the minimum could be altered in some subsequent year, if the rate of interest should fall still further; but he found it quite impossible to go below 2¾ under the present circumstances. He must ask the Committee to stand by him.

MR. J. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

asked whether a local body would be enabled to make an alternative offer of paying the whole of the loan or repaying by these annual instalments.


said he would make arrangements for loans to county governing bodies in Ireland for short terms, pending the consideration of the reform of Irish county government. He admitted that they had in Ireland special grounds for asking for consideration in the matter of short loans.


said that the Treasury ought not to go into competition with the banks and aim at making money over those loans. The view of the Treasury ought to be that public bodies were members of the same family as themselves, and therefore money ought to be advanced to them cheaply, no charge being made beyond the actual cost of the clerical work.


said the admission of the Chancellor of the Exchequer met the object he had in view in moving the Amendment. He therefore asked for leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. T. M. HEALY (on behalf of Mr. VESEY KNOX,) Londonderry

moved the following addition at the end of the Clause 1:— (2) Pending the establishment of county councils in Ireland loans may be made out of the Local Loans Fund on the security of the rates of a county or counties in Ireland, repayable at the end of such period, not exceeding two years as may be fixed by the Treasury in each case, and the interest on such loans shall be at the rate of two and three quarters per centum perannum and no provision need be made for sinking fund.


asked the right hon. Gentleman not to press the Amendment, in view of the Irish Local Government legislation which would be proposed next Session.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2, 7, and 8, postponed.

Clauses 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, and 10 ordered to stand part of Bill.


moved the following new clause:—

APPLICATION OF ACT TO LOANS UNDER 55 AND 56 c. 43; 60 AND 61 VIC. c. 6; AND 57 AND 58 VIC. c. 60.

The provisions of this Act with respect to loans on the security of a local rate shall extend—

  1. (a) to loans under the Military Lands Acts 1892 and 1897, on the security of land, and of a grant out of money provided by Parliament; and
  2. (b) to loans under section six hundred and sixty-three of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, on the security of the Mercantile Marine Fund, or of the several dues, rates, fees, and payments to be carried to that fund, or of any part thereof.

Clause brought up and read a First time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a Second time."


said the new clause was not on the Paper, and it was a most unusual proceeding to move a new clause, extending the scope of a Bill without notice. The money was to be lent for acquiring ground for Volunteers. But whom was it to be lent to and on what security?


said he did not care about pressing the clause now. He might, however, inform the hon. Gentleman that the security was practically a Parliamentary security because all those Volunteer corps got Parliamentary grants.


said he objected to the clause. Volunteers were not allowed rifle ranges in Ireland, and it was too much to ask Ireland to contribute towards supplying rifle ranges to Volunteers in England.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.