COLONIAL OFFICE VOTE (BRITISH SOUTH AFRICA.) (Hansard, 19 July 1897)

§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER (Belfast, W.)
said he did not think he spoke in his own name only but in the name of many hon. Members on both sides of the House when he said that they regarded it as something approaching to a piece of sharp practice—[Opposition cheers] —that the Committee should be asked to consider this Vote under the circumstances at that time of night. What were the circumstances? Here was the one subject which of all other subjects 480 had been moving and agitating every class of society and every section of both Houses of Parliaiment for the last two years; there had been attempt after attempt to prevent any reasonable discussion of it in Parliament—[loud Opposition cheers]—attempts which up to that evening had met with success; it was now very near the end of the Session; they had been told that the days which would be given to them for discussion were numbered; there had been no question approaching in interest to the Colonial question in all its branches—he was interested in one great section of that question, but there were innumerable other matters of interest involved—and yet they were to be told that it showed adequate and reasonable respect to the House at a quarter-past 10 o'clock on a hot summer's night—[Ministerial laughter]—when only an hour and three-quarters of the legitimate time of the Committee was left for the purposes of discussion, for he believed that the time spent in discussion after 12 o'clock was wasted time—to ask them to discuss a question of such enormous importance. He did not think such methods would succeed. The whole of this South African matter ought to be discussed. They had been put off time after time by being told that this matter was sub judice, but now it was no longer sub judice. He had asked whether, if this Vote were not taken that day, any other opportunity of discussing the matter would be given, and he had been told that no pledge could be given. Within the last few days this matter had been complicated, and they were told that during the Recess the whole administration of the Chartered Company was to be dealt with by the Government in consultation with the directors of that company. [Opposition cheers.] But the majority of the directors had been shown to be unacquainted with the subject matter under discussion. And what was to be said about the minority of the directors, who were to be consulted by the Government as to how this part of Her Majesty's dominions was to be administered? It was shown that the minority had grossly abused the confidence placed in them by the House—[Opposition cheers] and in acting as directors they had done 481 things which the House and its Committee had condemned. He thought it was time that the House should have some discussion of this matter. [Cheers.] He had watched the course of the proceedings with reference to the South African Committee, and he had come to the conclusion that there had been throughout this matter a conflict of wealth and influence on one side, and national interests on the other. [Opposition cheers.] Up to the present time wealth, and influence, and position had triumphed, and national interests had gone to the wall. [Cheers.] He might be told that he was troubling the waters and interfering with a satisfactory settlement of the question—that it would be better to adopt the maxim, Quieta non movere. He was, however, strongly impressed with the fact that there was very great danger to the country now and in the future if they left the matter where it was. If the Session closed without a clear declaration on what had taken place the procedure would be raised into the rank of a precedent. It was all very well to say that there was the Report of a Committee, and that there were certain censures in some newspapers, and eulogiums in others. But that was not what the House wanted; they wanted a clear expression of opinion by the House of Commons that a proceeding of this kind was detrimental to the public welfare. Four or five years ago he declared his belief that it was impossible to intrust the prerogatives of a great country to a small knot of men who were avowedly acting with the object of making money, and the facts had more than justified his fears. [Opposition cheers.] He believed that the majority of the people at the back of all this business in favour of "letting things slide" were animated at the bottom by one consideration. They said— "There is some great public service which has been performed which ought to condone, if it does not excuse, the faults committer' The superstructure of the myth was built on one colossal delusion. It was believed outside the House that the prime mover in the South African policy had conferred some enormous boon on this country, that Mr. Rhodes had secured for this country some great boon which would not have been secured but for his efforts. [Ministerial cheers.]; But what were 482 the facts? The whole of the territory up to the Zambesi was, as far back as 1882 and 1883 in the power of Her Majesty's Government to, take for the mere trouble of dosing their grasp upon it. Sir Charles Warren had been sent up the country, and had made treaties with the chiefs; but Sir Hercules Robinson refrained, on the ground of expense, from annexing the territory. Then came the Chartered Company. Mr. Rhodes promised largely. What had he performed? He was to go out to South Africa to assuage the eternal feud between Englishmen and Dutchmen. But he had lighted a brand which might take a hundred years to extinguish. He was to conciliate the natives and restore confidence among the black population of South Africa. What had he done? He had succeeded in goading the most miserable race in South Africa— the Mashonas—into active and cruel war. He had started a great money-making concern, but not a farthing of dividend had been paid by the Chartered Company, and, unless he was wrongly informed, there was little prospect of any dividend being paid. It was said that Mr. Rhodes himself had become rich. But the commercial undertakings had failed. Mr. Rhodes had sneered at the British Government for its incapacity to understand, much less to grapple with, South African problems. But those parts of South Africa—Basutdland, the Lakes territory, and Nyassaland—which had the good fortune to be administered by Great Britain were the best-governed and best-administered parts of South Africa. It did not lie in the mouth of. Mr. Rhodes to make such sneers. If hon. Members would carry back their minds they could judge for themselves what had been the value to this country of the services of Mr. Rhodes since he undertook the functions of the Imperial Government. When they came to ask where the advantage lay as between Mr. Rhodes and President Kruger, he must be an enthusiastic admirer of Mr. Rhodes who was not prepared to admit that President Kruger had won all along the line. [Cries of "No, No!" and "Hear, hear !"] He thought there was no dispute about that. It was true that President Kruger had more than once refrained from carrying out his intentions of doing things that were unjust to this country. Restraint 483 had been put upon him by the Colonial Office and not by Mr. Rhodes. This was a summary of what they owed to Mr. Rhodes. But there was one thing above all they owed to Mr. Rhodes, but ought to thank him least of all for—the introduction of the influence of money in directing and controlling the prerogative of a great nation. He had justified the imputation that money had been the greatest factor in his policy. Lastly, Mr. Rhodes had taught them that it was possible for a gentleman in his position, trusted by his Government, to deceive his superiors, to deceive his equals, and, worst of all to deceive and trick his subordinates. Unless there was a great contra to all this, which he himself did not understand, it was about time that this Rhodes myth was dropped. ["Hear, hear!"] They would be told that these things were all bygones, but he wanted the possibility of the recurrence of these things provided against. There had been no inquiry into the matters he himself was most concerned about. If it had been desired that it should be fruitless. the inquiry could not have been constituted or conducted in a way more calculated to render it so. Holding that view he could only wonder that the result had not been still more unsatisfactory. As to the charge of par-tisanship—

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS
said the hon. Member would not be in order in discussing the composition of the Committee. He would be perfectly in order in discussing their Report.

§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER
said the points were of great importance, and as he suggested at the commencement of his observations only proved that a full opportunity should be given—[cheers]— for discussing this, which, was in one sense a dominant factor in, the situation. ["Hear, hear!"] But if they were to come to the Report of the Committee, it did seem to some of them to be a very inadequate and unsatisfying document. It revealed things Which were very unpleasant. It revealed a method of procedure—for instance this flashing of telegrams all over the world under aliases—things which would have been insignificant and unimportant in themselves, had it not been that they 484 were dealing with the lives of men and the fortunes of a large number of people. ["Hear, hear!"] He thought it was a pity that a little more was not said about the undesirability of conduct of that kind, and how unbecoming it was that responsibility should be undertaken so lightly and wielded so clumsily that the consequences should be not the shaping of nations, but the death of certain honest if not very clear-headed men, who were hastened to their fate by this unfortunate mental activity on the part of one or two busybodies. He did think that one more word of censure might have been put on record. He would recall to the memory of the Committee, though it was hardly necessary to refresh their memories—he would recall that telegram which to the everlasting disgrace of the English name was sent to this country and published in this country on the eve of the raid. He did not think enough had been said of this gross abuse of the best sentiments of men's hearts. This ridiculous message, concocted by a party of four round a table, kept stewing for a month in some man's pocket, was sent to London under a forged date and published in a great newspaper—a message appealing to the best passions in every man's breast, to their love for their fellow-creatures, to their love for their womankind. He held that they required no further condemnation of these men and their methods than that which had been stamped with an indelible brand by the facts in connection with that letter as set forth in the Report of the Committee. [Cheers.] He now came to a matter which they might discuss freely, because it was no longer sub judice. He came to the proceedings of the Chartered Company. He protested against those proceedings, and he held that everything that had been said against the Company was lawfully said. They had been deprived of the inquiry which they were promised, and of which he ventured to say weeks ago they would be deprived. He wanted to know why the inquiry was stopped? ["Hear, hear!"] If the Chartered Company had come to an end, he should have been perfectly willing to accept the situation on the principle that in such a case the least said the soonest mended. They might have said —this Chartered Company, after years of failure, getting worse from beginning 485 to end, is now dead and done for, and buried; let us forget it. But it was dead and done for, and it was not buried. They knew something of the proceedings of this Company, however, although the inquiry they were promised had not been made. No thanks to the Committee of inquiry, they knew for absolute fact that this Chartered Company—born on the Stock Exchange, flourishing on the Stock Exchange, and drawing its inspiration from the Stock Exchange—had so far degraded the fair name of this country that it had deliberately re-introduced into South Africa under an alias so transparent that no one had the slightest doubt as to its identity—they hail re-introduced the practice of individual slavery. [Cheers.] Had the Committee told them anything about this? Not a bit. Did any Member of the Government tell them? Not a bit. What happened was this. Some months ago the Colonial Secretary in the exercise of his discretion—which seemed to him to have been admirably used—decided to send somebody out to inquire into the proceedings of this colossal failure, of this Chartered Company; and with the judgment that was characteristic of him, he said:— This man shall be a man against whom the finger of criticism cannot put a mark. He shall be, at any rate, a man who is not obnoxious to the charge which has been brought, and justly brought, against the Chartered Company and its officials of haying a pecuniary concern in the affairs of the Company; and he selected a gallant officer in Her Majesty's service, Sir Richard Martin, to make this inquiry. Sir Richard Martin went out, and he reported. They had been asking time after time that the Report of Sir Richard Martin should be produced in this House; but they were told that the matter was sub judice and could not be discussed. He was not responsible, he had nothing to do with it, but he knew that one of the public prints had published large extracts—which he presumed were authentic—front that Report. What did these extracts tell them? He must say that those who, like himself, had studied the proceedings of the Chartered Company were perfectly well aware that they had been carrying on their proceedings ill a way that was absolutely certain to produce the evils which had followed their rule—that they 486 had been for months and years driving these wretched Matabele and Mashonas into war—[cheers]—that they had deprived the natives of their cattle, and had compelled them to labour on terms which were the terms of slavery—["hear, hear!"]—and that they had added to the indignity of slavery the compulsory association of those whom they compelled to labour with men whom they regarded as infinitely below them in the social scale. They had done all these things, and the public had been told of them over and over again by competent observers on the spot, who he believed were speaking the truth; and now they were beginning to find that all these things were true, and had been true for months past; and he held that it was a pity that some steps had not been taken at an earlier period to acquaint the House and the country with what was being done. It was no use saying these things were not proved. If they were not proved, why were they not? [" Hear !" and laughter.] Yes, why were they not? He and those who agreed with him had been only too anxious that they should be inquired into and dragged into the light of day. All these evils were the necessary and certain result of allowing money to be the dominating factor in politics. The Report stated that in the opinion of the Committee pecuniary motives and stock-jobbing motives had not had any influence on these events in South Africa. He did not know exactly for whom that passage was intended; but there was not a man in the country, gentle or simple, who saw what was passing under his own eyes who would take that passage quite literally. ["Hear, hear!"] How were they to know there were no stock-jobbing transactions connected even with this one particular item? They were told by certain witnesses that there were no such transactions, but they had been told a great many things outside the Committee by Stock Exchange witnesses, some of which had turned out not to be true. [" Hear, hear !"] Personally, he should have liked an opportunity of testing there statements. If the Chartered Company were a limited company every single transaction, every transfer of shares, would appear on the register at Somerset House, and then they would have some power of ascertaining, not by mere vague 487 denials of ibis kind, but by evidence as to which there could be no doubt, whether even in this one particular instance this defence was justified or not. ["Hear, hear!"] He declared that the whole thing, from beginning to end, had been based upon money. If it had not been, then it would have no raison d'être at all. ["Hear, hear!"] He had always sympathised with and admitted the grievances of the Johannesburgers, but the witnesses before the Committee proved that these had been enormously exaggerated, and that there was nothing to justify an outbreak in Johannesburg was proved by the fact that there was no outbreak there. [" Hear, hear !"] There was certainly nothing which could justify the sending of the telegrams from Cape Town to London by which it was attempted to bamboozle that House and the country into the belief that. this extraordinary failure was the result of some deep and splendid patriotic yearning. ["Hear, hear!"] He had given some reasons for believing they ought to have a clear expression from that Parliament as to what had been happening in South Africa. It was not only as regarded the past, but also as to the future, that he desired to say a word. He had heard rumours that some of the officers who had been engaged in what he would call a conspiracy against the welfare of this country were to be rewarded by promotion. He should like to know whether it was the fact that it was intended to promote one, if not two, servants of the Crown who had been engaged in a prominent degree in this conspiracy. [Cries of "Name !"] He alluded to Sir Graham Bower and Mr. Newton. When a Turkish officer committed some offence which Europe had to judge—this country forming part of the European Concert mid acting, on the adjudicating tribunal —his conduct was condemned, representations were made to the Porte, and such a man was removed from the scene of his labours and failures and degraded only to be immediately promoted. ["Hear, hear!"] Were they to follow that example or were they to give this encouragement. to public servants who had so acted—because if they were they should be setting a very dangerous precedent indeed? He thought the whole of the last two years had 488 been replete with dangerous precedents. [Cheers.] The fact that so many men had gone scot free bad tended to establish a precedent which they should regret. He could not help turning his thoughts to other branches of Her Majesty's Service, and asking himself what would be the effect in them if this precedent were established in one particular branch. ["Hear, hear!"] Before now men. who had served their Queen and country for the greater part. of their lives, and who had attained pre-eminence in their professions, had been practically ruined as the result of a calamity for which they were not responsible. This had occurred to men in the Navy who were guiltless of any crime, and the career of many a soldier had been similarly blasted for some small dereliction of duty which was really not his own. Were they going to tell these unfortunate men that it they had served in another branch of the public service they might have deceived their superiors, that they might have done so in the course of their regular duties, and that they would have received a nominal censure only? That was all that he desired to say— [loud Ministerial cheers and counter-cheers,]—at that moment because there must be other opportunities of discussing this subject. It was a question that concerned the Empire, and its discussion could not but be advantageous. If the House should resolve to approve the course of action which had been taken he must of course acquiesce; but if it should resolve to censure this action that censure ought to be expressed in a manner which could not be misunderstood—[" hear, hear!"]—so that what had been possible in the past should not be possible in the future for this Chartered Company, which having in its pursuit of gold conquered Mashonaland, Manicaland, and Matabeleland, and failed to conquer the Transvaal, and had inflicted all this shameful history upon the. Empire. [Opposition cheers.]
[The FIRST LORD of the TREASURY and Mr. WYNDHAM rose together, and there were some cries for the latter, but the hon. Member gave way.]

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
If my hon. Friend the Member for Dover desires to address the House I, at all events, shall not stand long between him and the Committee. From the hints, innuendoes, and suggestions of 489 accusations—[Opposition cries of "No!" and cheers]—accusations in part sketched out, but not fully developed—to which we have just listened I have been able to extract two or three distinct charges in which the Government may be said to be indirectly involved, and with these two or three charges I propose for a very few moments to occupy the time of the Committee. The first charge of my hon. Friend—who has had the advantage of speaking to us now for nearly an hour— [loud Opposition cheers]—the first charge of my hon. Friend was that this Debate was brought on at a time so inconvenient that no useful, no serious Debate was possible. As a matter of fact, my hon. Friend has had the advantage of speaking at the very moment when many Members of great position in this House desired to address us, but were not able to do so, and I cannot imagine an hour more suited to the Parliamentary ambition of my hon. Friend —[Opposition cries of "Oh !" laughter, and cheers]—than the one which the for-tune of Debate has given him. My hon. Friend has charged the Government distinctly and deliberately with a conspiracy extending throughout the whole Session to suppress all discussion upon what he called "the thing," which afterwards appeared to mean affairs in South Africa. I presume my hon. Friend meant discussion in Committee of Supply, but, as the House knows, discussions in Committee of Supply under the new rule are invariably and without exception given on the most convenient days to the Leader of the Opposition whenever he asks for them. ["Hear, hear!"] He knows that, in addition to that, if any large section of the House desires to have a discussion of these matters, a time for I he discussion during the 20 days allotted to Supply is always found, and if this be, as it undoubtedly is, the first day on which the Colonial Secretary's salary has been in question, it is for this reason, and for no other, that no demand has been made by any large section of Members in this House—[" Oh, oh !" and cheers] —and that the Front Opposition Bench, to whom we only look—[cheers]—for demands for time for the criticism of the Government's policy—that Bench has made no request at all—[cheers]—and, if my memory does not deceive me, I do not think he ever asked for a day; and 490 the only Member of the House whom I distinctly recollect as asking for a day to discuss South African affairs is my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield.

§ MR. T. R. BUCHANAN (Aberdeenshire, E.)
The Committee only reported last week.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
If the Committee only reported last week, what is all this talk about a conspiracy? [Cheers.]

§ MR. PHILIP STANHOPE (Burnley)
It surely must be within the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman that, I think, on Thursday of last week I put to him a direct question as to whether he could give a day for the discussion of this particular matter, and he then positively refused to give us any day at all. [Cheers.]

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
A conspiracy to burke Debate on this subject, which began on last Thursday—[cheers and laughter]—and which has therefore extended only over One Parliamentary night, which Parliamentary night had for many weeks been mortgaged for another purpose, appears to me a conspiracy of a not very formidable character. [Cheers.]

§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER
Does the right hon. Gentleman say he will give us a day? My impression was that the right hon. Gentleman had declined to give us a day. [" Hear, hear!" and cries of "Give it now !"]

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
My hon. Friend asks me whether I propose to give a day. A day so far has only been asked for by one single independent Radical sitting below the Gangway. [Cries of "Oh, oh !" and" Hear, hear !"] It will be admitted. that if at this time of the year and of the Session days were to be given on the demand of "a single Member, however able, the task of leading the House, arranging the business of the House, and bringing it to a conclusion would be absolutely impossible. [" Hear, hear !"] I have never refused a day, I have never been asked for a day by the responsible Opposition—[cheers] —if there be a responsible Opposition. [Loud cheers.] If it had, I can assure hon. Members that I should treat it as I always treat demands coming from such a quarter, with the utmost respect, and, in such cases, with invariable compliance. But I am not going to be put off by my 491 hon. Friend's interruption. ["Hear, hear!"] His charge is, not that I have refused a day since last Thursday—his charge is that I have done so during the whole of the Session—a charge which is absolutely unfounded. [Cheers.] I repudiate now, and I shall have to that repudiation the assent of every man in the House, on whatever side he sits, who has followed the course of the Debates of the Session. [Cheers.] So much for the first of the specific charges of my hon. Friend. There were two others I extracted from his speech; one was based on an answer I gave him a. few days ago that in considering the question of the future government of the territories of the South Africa Company, among others, the directors of that company were to be consulted. My hon. Friend brings that before the House as if it were the last extreme of political injury; but my hon. Friend forgot to quote the whole of the answer on which he based his charge. I did indeed say that among the persons who would be consulted would be the directors of the company. ["Hear, hear!"] Is that a foolish policy, is that a flagitious, is that a corrupt policy? I think it is an eminently reasonable policy. [Cheers.] I admit it might have deserved the hard epithets he has used had the directors of the company been the only persons to be consulted, but the other persons I said who were to be consulted were Sir Alfred Milner, the Imperial Commissioner in South Africa, and the Government of Cape Colony. ["Hear, hear!"] Who in addition to those does my hon. Friend desire us to consult? [An HON. MEMBER: "Himself!" (Laughter.)] My hon. Friend is a person of great ability, and any observation or suggestion he makes to us we shall, of course, consider. But who among public bodies? My hon. Friend is not yet a public body. [Laughter.] What great official would he have us consult? I am at a loss to see who I have omitted in the answer I gave him—[An HON. MEMBER: "The House of Commons !"]—that we should consult the directors of the company, Sir A. Milner, and the Government of the Cape. So much for the second of my hon. Friend's specific charges; and what is the third? It relates to the Report of Sir Richard Martin with regard to the methods of government and the policy adopted by 492 the South Africa Company. The hon. Gentleman asks to whom are we indebted for the Report. Was it to the Committee, was it to the Government? Well, I do not know on whom the credit does devolve, except it be on the hon. Gentleman who has unearthed the Report.

§ MR. J. MORLEY (Montrose Burghs)
We have asked for the Report repeatedly from this side of the House. [" Hear, hear!"]

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
Then am I to understand that the credit of the Report is with those who asked for it, and the merit must be shared between my hon. Friend and the right hon. Gentleman opposite? [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] Let me say that in my judgment the credit for the Report is with those-who appointed the person to make the Report, who caused the Report to be made, and the merit is with my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary.

§ MR. J. MORLEY
Why do we not have it? [Cries of "Why not produce it?" "It is a public document !"]

§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER
said he gave every credit to the Colonial Secretary for the Report.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
Eulogiums on my right hon. Friend were dispersed rather arbitrarily in the speech of the hon. Gentleman, but did not notice that he gave any eulogy for this Report. [Cries of "Yes!"] Then I missed that, and I entirely withdraw the criticism on that portion of the hon. Gentleman's remarks, and I understand he is not asking whether he owed this to the Government; what he asked was whether he owed it to the Committee. [Cries of "Where is it?" "Why suppress it?" "We want the Report!"] I think hon. Gentlemen are rather unreasonable in this connection. The Report has been brought to the notice of the Committee, it has been laid before them, and questions have been asked in this House, and no attempt of course has been made to prevent it becoming public by the Government, or would have succeeded; the Report has been laid before a Committee of the House, and is palpably a public document. [Cries of "Where is it?"]

§ MR. J. MORLEY
rose—

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS
suggested it would be better to 493 allow the right hon. Gentleman to continue his speech, and then it could be answered.

§ MR. J. MORLEY
It is not an explanation I require, but the right hon. Gentleman has not quite accurately represented to the Committee what has happened. What we wanted to see was the Report, and the Secretary for the Colonies said he was considering this, and that it was not usual to produce it to the House, after submitting it to the Committee until the whole of the evidence laid before the Committee was before us. I rather think he was willing, but his willingness has not come to the point of laying the Report before us.

§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.)
If I may be allowed to say so, I do not think this matter has the importance some hon. Members seem to attach to it. My answer was, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, mid also that the Report was a Report made by an individual, by a Deputy-Commissioner of the Imperial Government, and, therefore, no doubt entitled to consideration; but a Report which, as he himself has said, he had been unable to get sufficient and satisfactory evidence to support. I thought I was bound to semi the Report to the company, who were in a position to obtain evidence, and the moment the Chartered Company had seen the Report they protested against some of the statements, and asked leave to make a reply. In answer to the right hon. Gentleman, I told him all this, and I said in addition it was a question whether the Report ought to be produced after handing it to the Committee, and also a question, whether it was fair to produce the Report without the reply of the Chartered Company. The Chartered Company had to communicate with South Africa on the subject, and consequently I heir reply is not even in my hands. But I promised the reply during the present week. If I receive it 494 during the present week I intend immediately to lay on the Table of the House both the Report and the reply. [Cheers.]

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
My right hon. Friend has, with an authority on such a. matter which. I, of course, cannot pretend to, for I can only get my information from him, made the matter perfectly clear, and the Committee will be able to appreciate what amount of substance there is in the notion which my hon. Friend has endeavoured to disseminate that, in this matter of Sir Richard Martin's Report, those responsible for the Report are exorcising the arts of concealment in order that the public may not know what it contains. I think I have now, so far as the Government is concerned, dealt with the only three specific charges which I can, at all events, extract from my hon. Friend's speech. With that part of it which deals with Mr. Rhodes it really is hardly my business to trouble the Committee. Ho has condemned Mr. Rhodes. [An IRISH MEMBER: "So has the Committee!"] He has used very strong language about Mr. Rhodes, but does my hon. Friend suppose that he is wisdom crying in wilderness on tins subject? Is he the only person who has condemned the raid, or whose moral sense has been outraged by the raid? My hon. Friend must know perfectly well that the Committee, in the most explicit terms, has said, with at least as much force as he has employed, that the raid is a thing which is wholly unjustifiable and which Mr. Rhodes himself has never attempted to justify— [Opposition cries of "Oh !]—has never attempted to justify. [Cheers.] Why my hon. Friend, under these circumstances, should, in addition to his attacks on Her Majesty's Government, who are legitimate objects of criticism in this House, and who have no right to complain of such criticism and never do complain of such criticism, have dealt in his long invective against Mr. Rhodes, whose fault neither Mr. Rhodes himself, nor any other man, so far as I know, has endeavoured to extenuate, but who nevertheless has rendered services—[loud cheers] 495 —to South. Africa in particular and to the Empire as a whole, and why he should have attempted to make these pecuniary insinuations against a man of whom I know very little, but of whom the whole world testifies that he is himself in no sense open to that species of corruption —[cheers]—why he should have done that I know not. Of course, it is inevitable that, if British South Africa be, or be thought to be, a great field of enterprise, there will collect around it a great many transactions and persons connected with transactions which are not particularly interesting and in some cases, it may be, not particularly honourable. All we have to desire is that the administration of the country itself shall be a pure administration—[cheers and counter-cheers] —that it shall not be illegitimately moved by base pecuniary considerations —[cheers]—and that the Governors of British South Africa, as the Governors of every other part of Her Majesty's dominions, may have at heart not merely the benefit and the welfare of a few speculators, but the general benefit and the general welfare of every class, native and British, who may be under the British flag, and own the Queen as their Sovereign. That this great end may ho attained is the earnest desire of Her Majesty's Government, and we shall do everything we can to secure it. [Cheers.]

§ SIR W. HARCOURT
I do not rise to continue the controversy between the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Belfast, though I confess I do not Understand the justification for the warmth of the tone in which the right hon. Gentleman has spoken. With a great part of the observation of the hon. Gentleman I must say I entirely sympathise—[cheers, and Ministerial cries of "Oh!"]—but it is too late to-night to enter into a discussion of a question of such importance as this. [Cheers.] The right hon. Gentleman, has said that he was waiting for an invitation from me to give a day for the discussion of these matters, including the Committee whose 496 conduct has been impeached. I think the right hon. Gentleman knows very well what my opinion open that subject is —that when there is a matter in which the House is so deeply interested, as it is in this question, time ought always to be given by the Government. [Cheers.] It is not at this moment that the right hon. Gentleman is aware of my opinion upon that subject, and he need not have waited for my public invitation to give that time. [Ministerial cries of "Oh!"] But, as the right hon. Gentleman, has said that he was waiting for my demand, I make it now. [Cheers, and counter-cheers.] I should think that any Member who has any experience of the House of Commons must know that, whatever their opinions may be upon any particular question or issue, it is wise, proper, and right that the House should be given an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon all sides of the question. [Cheers.]

THE FIRST LORD OF TEE TREASURY
said that after what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman he should endeavour to find time for a discussion. That, however, must be raised on a specific resolution. [Cheers.] He could not, however, promise that he should find a whole day.

§ MR. G. WYNDHAM (Dover)
said the difficulty of the discussion of this Vote had been greatly increased by the action of the Member for Belfast. He should have been content if there had been no discussion on the Colonial Vote at all. Whatever information the hon. Member for Belfast might have, ho did not see that they could usefully intervene in the affairs of South Africa. The hon. Member for West Belfast had made a wholesale attack upon the inhabitants of Johannesburg. Was it fair, or just, or good taste for the hon. Member to read out a string of names of the leaders of society in the town noble men, with wives and children, who conferred a benefit on mankind—[ironical 497 laughter]— certainly they conferred a benefit on mankind by applying all the discoveries of science to procure a greater output of gold. There was too much cheap satire against men whose lives hon. Members had not taken the trouble to understand. ["Hear, hear!"] The hon. Member had also said that there was all attempt to allege some great public service on the part of Mr. Rhodes which, it was held, ought to atone for the political crime of which Mr. Rhodes had been found guilty. He had never heard that said; but he had heard it said that a man who had rendered such signal service to his country must always hold a place in the gratitude of his country. ["Hear, hear!"] The hon. Member had also asserted that the claim made on behalf of Mr. Rhodes that he it was who brought the country from Rhodesia to the Zambesi under the British Crown was baseless. If the hon. Member talked with statesmen in South Africa he would find that there was not a single man who denied that that had been the policy of Mr. Rhodes throughout, that he had advanced it by his own private purse, and that it was his untiring energy that had brought it about. ["Hear, hear!"] The hon. Member also spoke of Mr. Rhodes as one who had done nothing to bring Boer and Briton closer together in South Africa. It should be known that now Boers were fighting side by side with men of British blood; that even in the Cape House of Assembly Mr. Rhodes had the support of many Dutch members, and that in South Africa generally leading Dutchmen said that however much they regretted Mr. Rhodes's connection with the Jameson Raid, they were not going to unsay the words of gratitude to Mr. Rhodes which had passed their lips. The hon. Member had said that in the matter of the treatment of the native races Mr. Rhodes had goaded the Mashonas into war; but the hon. Member had forgotten that Mr. Rhodes, with Mr. Colenbrander, had brought peace to the Matabele, showing that it was possible 498 for a man who understood the natives to bring peace amongst them and get their affection and love. The hon. Member for West Belfast had done his best to draw an injurious comparison between the work of Mr. Rhodes and that of Sir H. Johnston, and nothing would be more fatal than for the House of Commons as it were to back one great colonial administrator against another. It was derogatory to the dignity of the House and must be of sinister consequence. ["Hear, hear!"] It was hard on the spur of the moment to take up all the charges which had been flung about. The Committee was debarred from discussing the Report of the Committee, but the hon. Centleman had thought it fair to place upon words in that Report the most injurious construction which they were capable of bearing. The hon. Member seemed to think the words condemned not only the political propriety of Mr. Rhodes's conduct, but almost his moral character. He wished to repudiate with all his strength the kind of attack which had been made on Mr. Rhodes as a man. ['' Hear, hear !"] Some of his acts might be politically reprehensible, but as a man Mr. Rhodes still commanded the love, respect, and gratitude of a great number of his fellow-countrymen. [Cheers.]

§ MR. J. SCOTT-MONTAGU (Hants, New Forest)
said that he had been six months in South Africa, and though he did not pretend that that enabled him fully to speak on all the problems, yet it gave him a greater knowledge, of the country than hon. Gentlemen who had not been there. He was sure that the hon. Member for West Belfast would modify a great deal of what he had said if he had studied the question on the spot. The hon. Member said that Mr. Rhodes's policy was as bad for the natives as for the British Empire. The hon. Member quite forgot that Mr. Rhodes's legislation on the native question was one of his greatest titles to fame; and whatever might be said of Mr. Rhodes's connection with the Raid, Mr. Rhodes had 499 a direct title to the respect and gratitude of Englishmen for the way in which he bore the acquisition of Rhodesia on his own shoulders for a very long time. As to the Colonial Secretary he was bound to say that there was a time when he disagreed with the right hon. Gentleman's policy; but looking back now, and realising the difficulties which had to be contended with, he felt convinced that the way in which the right hon. Gentleman had directed the policy of this country was worthy of admiration, and that the policy was the right one to pursue. As to the Raid, the House of Commons would be doing a great injustice to Mr. Rhodes if they condemned him without regard to his past services. He suggested that it would be well for hon. Members in discussing South Africa to try and moderate their language, because it would be for the advantage of South Africa. He was sure it would be the most difficult task the Government had ever had to try and replace the Chartered Company by any other form of possible administration.

§ MR. J. H. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)
asked the Leader of the House whether he proposed to take the Vote to-night?

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
said the Vote was closely associated with a Motion which, he understood, was to be moved on some subsequent day, but so far from that being a reason for not taking the Colonial Vote, it seemed rather to be a reason in favour of that course. But, of course, he would not press the matter.

§ CAPTAIN BETHELL (York, E.R., Holderness)
asked the Colonial Secretary whether he could hold out any hope of the early release of the Zulu chiefs who were banished to St. Helena about eight years ago. Their banishment all these years for what, after all, was a mere technical rebellion, was a monstrously heavy punishment. For a good many years he asked the Colonial authorities about these Zulu chiefs and was led to 500 believe that in a short time they would be allowed to return to their native country. Nothing however, happened. He believed, indeed, that in 1895 a ship was chartered to convey them back to Zululand, but three days before embarkation, a telegram came from the Colonial Office instructing the governor that they were still to be retained at St. Helena. From that day to this no encouragement or hope has been held out that their punishment would be terminated. The reason of this, he believed, was the opposition of Natal. Natal had since those days got responsible Government. It had constantly asked to have Zululand handed over to it, and he believed the opinion of the Colonial Office was that Zululand ought to be handed over to Natal. He thought the right hon. Gentleman would admit that unless there was some very strong reason for it their punishment had been a monstrous one for a comparatively trifling offence. He knew no reason to fear that their return to Zululand would provoke the inhabitants to a rising, and he earnestly hoped these unfortunate chiefs would be released.

§ MR. PHILIP STANHOPE (Burnley)
asked if he might give notice of the exact terms of the Motion that would be made?

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS
said the proper time to do so would be on the adjournment.

§ MR. STANHOPE
appealed to the Leader of the House not to take the Vote at that hour of the night.

§ *SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT
, in associating himself with the appeal of the hon. Member, said there had been no discussion upon a Colonial Vote since May, 1896. There was a day given towards the close of last session, but that day was entirely consumed by a discussion on the desirability of the appointment of the South Africa Committee,—there was no discussion on South African affairs generally or on Colonial affairs. The Leader of the House adopted a new 501 argument which he had never heard before, when he said the vote was not put down because the Leader of the Opposition did not ask for it.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
I never said that.

§ *SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT
said he was very sorry if he had misunder stood the right hon. Gentlemen—["hear, hear !"]—but he distinctly said that the Vote was not put down because it was not asked for by the Leader of the Opposition.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
What I said was that if the Leader of the Opposition had asked for it it would have been put down. The logical mind of my right hon. Friend will quite see the distinction. [Laughter.]

§ *SIR K ASHMEAD - BARTLETT
thought the distinction was rather dialectical that logical. He was surprised to hear the Leader of the House reply to the attack of the Member for Belfast, instead of the Colonial Secretary. He hoped that the House would be given an opportunity by the postponement of the Vote to discuss questions connected with South Africa which could not be discussed on the Report of the Committee. As to the Transvaal, they wanted to know what had been done by the Colonial Secretary to fulfil the pledges given to the Uitlanders eighteen months ago. It would be absurd to attempt to discuss these questions after midnight.

§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTON (Tower Hamlets, Poplar)
said that the Questions as to the Zulus and other points ought tc be raised at a more fitting opportunity than the present, and he supported the appeal which had been made.

§ MR LEONARD COURTNEY (Bodmin)
said there were many points in the Colonial Vote which required examination, and which could not be entered into that evening. There was besides the most interesting question connected with the Canadian tariff and its results.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
said that the Leader of the House intended to consult the directors of the Chartered Company, Sir A. Milner, and the Cape Government as to affairs in Rhodesia; but he did not mention the House of Commons.

§ MR. DALZIEL
urged that the Report of the South African Committee should be fully discussed before the Colonial Secretary's salary was voted.

MR. BRYN ROBERTS (Carnarvonshire, Eifion)
hoped that the minutes of evidence and Sir Richard Martin's Report would be circulated before the further discussion of the Vote.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
said that if he consented to postpone the Vote, he could not promise any other day for discussion. Still, if the House desired that the Vote should be discussed in the place of some other Vote, he would endeavour to meet that view. He was willing to go on. ["Hear, hear!"]

§ MR. J. H. DALZIEL
considered that the remark of the right hon. Gentleman was very ill-timed. Did hon. Gentlemen opposite imagine that any good was to be gained by further discussion to-night of the action of the Committee and the policy of the Colonial Office in view of a day being pledged to be given for that discussion? It seemed to be a waste of time to go on to-night. They were promised a day, and they were going to have a day for the discussion of the whole of the South African question. That day had got to be given, and why was it not going to be given after the day on which they were going to discuss the Report of the Committee? They might have a discussion on the Report of the Committee and on the question of South African policy this week. Why not take to-morrow and the day after?

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
said it would cause great inconvenience, as Wednesday and Thursday had been appropriated for some time past for Scotch Bills.

§ MR. DALZIEL
said surely that was an argument in favour of the point of view he was pressing on the House. According to the right hon. Gentleman, they could not have the discussion he had promised on South Africa until Monday next; and he supposed he would not give them any hope that Monday would be given.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
thought they might take Monday or Tuesday.

§ MR. DALZIEL
said that it was only a matter of the day for the question of the Colonial Secretary's salary. There was absolutely no business promised for Tuesday that could not be postponed wiihout inconvenience. The inevitable result, according to the right hon. Gentleman himself, was that if Monday was given for the discussion of South African affairs, the Colonial Secretary's salary could not be taken; because he would give no pledge that it would be taken after the discussion of the Committee's Report.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
said he thought he must be obscure, or the hon. Gentleman had not caught what he said. He had no doubt that the discussion of the Committee in Report must precede the taking of the Colonial Vote.

§ MR. DALZIEL
That is what I want to make clear.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
said that what he could not promise was that time should be given to this Vote, because lie could not say that the time existed. He could only do his best to consult the wishes of the House, but could not do more?

§ MR. DALZIEL
Then it is a mistake on my part?

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
It is not my fault.

§ MR. DALZIEL
said he did not understand the right hon. Gentleman to indicate that the Vote would be postponed until after the discussion of the Report. If that was so, it altered the 504 matter. They might hope that the amount of time required for the discussion of the Colonial Vote would largely depend on what took place in the previous Debate.

§ MR. CHAMBERLAIN
observed that what they had to do that night, and would have to do on a future occasion if this Vote was put down again, was to discuss details of colonial policy which arose, and raise questions as to which hon. Members desired information, and which he was always ready to answer. He did not for the life of him see why these questions should not be asked now and the answers given. He understood the hon. Member for Sheffield desired to raise what was called a first-class debate on matters of policy. He learned of that desire for the first time; he doubted whether it was shared by other hon. Members, and, now that matters had fortunately assumed a much more satisfactory aspect in South Africa than they presented some time ago, he should doubt very much whether any good purpose could be served by the discussion of ancient controversies. ["Hear, hear!'] With, regard to the matter raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Holderness, he had to say that when he came into the Colonial Office his attention was directed to the case of the Zulu chiefs. He should not describe them as suffering punishment. He should rather say they were deported because their deportation was considered necessary in the interests of the peace of South Africa. It was not so much to punish them as to protect South Africa that they were sent to St. Helena. He was anxious to carry out the promise which had been made by his predecessors, but which they had been unable to give effect to, and allow the chiefs to be returned to Zululand. He met, however, with the same difficulty which had baffled his predecessor. Although it was considered a right and proper thing that the chiefs should be allowed to return to Zululand; Natal, a colony in the neighbournood, enjoying representative institations, was entirely opposed to it, and as representative government had just 505 been conferred on Natal it would not have been a wise policy to have disregarded her representations on the subject. The matter had, therefore, to some extent been delayed by negotiations with the Government of Natal, but he was happy to say that these negotiations had proceeded so far that he was justified in indicating to the Zulu chiefs that they would be allowed to return during the present year. ["Hear, hear!"]

§ DR. CLARK (Caithness)
expressed satisfaction at the right hon. Gentleman's statement as to the Zulu chiefs. He took it for granted that these men would receive pensions, their lands having been taken from them, and he wished to know whether their pensions would be provided out of Imperial funds or by the Natal Government.

§ MR. CHAMBERLAIN
said that he could not enter into details of that kind while the subject, was still under consideration. All these details had been discussed with the Premier of Natal, and it was hoped that a satisfactory settlement, would be arrived at.

§ MR. BUXTON
explained that the difficulty of the late Government some years ago arose from the fact that Natal had only recently had self-government. He was glad that the Government had been able to come to an arrangement with Natal on this subject. Understanding that there would be another opportunity of discussing the Vote he begged to move "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

§ MR. STANHOPE
gave notice that on the consideration of the Report of the British South Africa Committee he would clove the following Resolution:— That this House regrets the inconclusive action and Report of the Select Committee on the affairs of British South Africa, and especially the failure of that Committee to recommend specific steps with regard to Mr. Rhodes, and to report immediately to this House the refusal of Mr. Hawksley to obey the order of the Committee to produce copies of certain telegrams which he admitted were in his possession and which he had already submitted to the Secretary for the Colonies in duty, 1896, and that Mr. Hawksley be ordered to appear at the Bar of this House and then and there to produce the copies of the telegrams.

§ MR. R. G. WEBSTER (St. Pancras, E.)
observed that there were other Colonies besides South Africa, and asked whether 506 there would be an opportunity of discussing affairs concerning them, especially the subject of cablegram communication.

§ MR. WEIR
was surprised that the hon. Member for Poplar should have moved to report progress at that hour (12.25 a.m.). He thought the discussion ought to go on, and was ready personally to remain up until 6 or 7 o'clock in the morning.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
said that it appeared that the hon. Gentleman opposite and himself were anxious to go on and nobody else was. [Laughter.] He was afraid that the general wish of the House was clearly expressed in favour of reporting progress, and, as the Committee was perfectly cognisant of the position in which the business of Supply stood, he should not resist the Motion.
Resolution to be reported to-morrow; Committee also report Progress; to sit again upon Wednesday.