HC Deb 16 July 1897 vol 51 cc312-7
THE CLERK (Sir Reginald Palgrave)

Attendance of John Kirkwood.

MR. MACNEILL (Donegal, S.)

He is not a millionaire. [Cries of "Order!"]

*MR. SPEAKER

Is John Kirkwood in attendance?

THE SERJEANT-AT-ARMS (Mr. Erskine)

Yes, Sir.

*MR. SPEAKER

Let him be brought in.

The Serjeant-at-Arms conducted John Kirkwood to the Bar of the House. Cries were raised by several hon. Members of "Hawksley," "Where is Hawksley?" and "Order, order !"

*MR. SPEAKER

John Kirkwood, were you examined before a Select Committee of this House yesterday?

MR. KIRKWOOD

Yes, Sir.

*MR. SPEAKER

Was this Question addressed to you by Mr. Ascroft, member of the Committee,— Mr. Kirkwood, in again asking you the following questions I may inform you that neither I nor any other member of the Committee have any desire or intention that the name of the borrower should be in any way divulged. Did you on December 23, 1890, advance to this gentleman the sum of £20, and take a promissory note for £36 15s.; and did you also on July 28, 1891, advance a further sum of £40, and take a promissory note for the same; and did he by January, 1893, repay £58 15s., leaving a balance of £1 5s.; and did you subsequently sue him for £689 for the payment of that sum and costs at £7 a month? Was that Question addressed to you?

MR. KIRKWOOD

Yes, Sir.

*MR. SPEAKER

Did you decline to answer it?

MR. KIRKWOOD

I did. The accounts were altogether wrong, Sir.

*MR. SPEAKER

You must answer the Questions I put to you, and you must confine yourself to doing so. Did you decline to answer the Question?

MR. KIRKWOOD

I did, for reasons that were then given—

*MR. SPEAKER

Do you still persist in declining to answer it?

MR. KIRKWOOD

If this honourable House decides that I am to answer the Questions under the peculiar circumstances—

*MR. SPEAKER

That is not what I am asking you. Do you now again persist in refusing to answer the Question? I ask you to say Yes or No to that Question.

MR. KIRKWOOD

If this honourable House says that I am—

*MR. SPEAKER

You must answer the Question or otherwise I must ask you to withdraw, that the House may take action on your refusal to answer. What do you say? Do you still persist in refusing to answer that Question"!

MR. KIRKWOOD

I will answer anything that this House orders me to do. ["Hear, hear!"]

*MR. SPEAKER

Then you may now withdraw.

MR. KIRKWOOD

The responsibility row will be with this House, and not with me—

*MR. SPEAKER

I have not invited you to make any speech. You must now withdraw.

MR. KIRKWOOD

May I say this—

*MR. SPEAKER

No.

MR. KIRKWOOD

I should like to make a statement.

*MR. SPEAKER

No. The Serjeant-at-Arms will see that he withdraws.

MR. KIRKWOOD

withdrew.

THE FIRST LORD or THE TREASURY

I beg to move, in accordance with precedent— That, John Kirkwood do attend at the next meeting of the Select Committee on Money-hauling, and answer, to the satisfaction of the Commiittee, questions to which he has hitherto refused to make an answer.

MR. SPEAKER

having put the question,

CAPTAIN BETHELL (York, E.R., Holderness)

said: I should like to ask the Leader of the House whether the Question which has been put to this witness is one that under the circumstances the Committee has a right to extort from him? [Irish cheers.] The Committee are appointed, is I understand it, to gain information about money-lending and the usury laws, in order that legislation may be proposed to the House. It seems to me that we have gone rather far, however morally reprehensible this man may have been—["hear, hear!"]—in insisting in extorting from him these financial transactions, which I understand were not out of conformity with the law, however they may be out of conformity with the moral law. I am rather impressed in connection with this matter, Sir, by the different action that has been taken by another Committee recently—[loud Irish cheers]—which has caused some public interest. It does not appear to me that in this particular instance the ends of the Committee that we have appointed to inquire into this subject might not have been perfectly met without seeking to extort from this person the morally reprehensible practices which, no doubt, he is accustomed to follow. [Cries of "Oh !"] I do not see that there is anything very exceptional in saying that. ["Hear, hear!"] I should like to ask in reference to the Motion that has been made whether, supposing this witness refuses to answer the question at the next meeting of the Committee, it is intended to be followed, or will necessarily be followed, by any legal action on the part of the House? I do not think that the dignity of the Committee or of the House will be served in that way, because I am personally much more solicitous of the liberty and the legal right of every individual rather than of the dignity of any Committee.

MR. JOHN DILLON (Mayo, E.)

It would be wise for the House of Commons carefully to consider the question which has been raised by the hon. Member, whether it would conduce to the dignity of the House of Commons to deal with a comparatively insignificant and humble man by this rigorous method of procedure in view of what I am informed is the fact—that when he refused to answer the question put by the Committee he pleaded in justification for his conduct that a much more important Committee had allowed a much more distinguished man to refuse to answer questions—[Irish cheers]—on a much more important matter. We know that we are without precedent with respect to that matter, and you yourself were unable to inform us of any precedent. The much more important Committee to which I refer, appointed to investigate an infinitely more important matter, a short time ago, when they were openly defied by a very prominent and distinguished man in this City, and when information that was required by that Committee was refused by this individual, declined to put into force against Mr. Hawksley the great power with which the Committees of this House are armed. I put it to the British House of Commons—how will they stand before the public of this country—[Irish cheers]—if, against a humble and obscure individual, whose proceedings are of infinitesimal importance as compared with the proceedings of Mr. Hawksley and his friends, in respect of information which is sought for on matters which have exceedingly little to do either with the investigations of this Committee or the business of the House, they set in motion the enormous and immense power of the House of Commons? When once you set that power in motion, you cannot restrain it, because, if you act on this occasion against that man, and if he again defies the Committee, you must deprive him of his liberty. [Irish cheers.] I ask you again—How can you stand before the public of this country, and before a wider audience than the public of this country —[Ministerial laughter and Irish cheers]—namely, before the nations of Europe, who watched the proceedings of the British South Africa Committee with gathering interest and gathering suspicion—[cries of "Order!" and Irish cheers]—

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! The hon. Member must not turn this Debate into a Debate on the proceedings of the South Africa Committee. The question is whether the Motion before the House should be agreed to.

MR. DILLON

I regret that I am not able to turn the Debate into a Debate on the proceedings of the British South Africa Committee. I may add that I think the House would do well to consider whether they should proceed in the manner proposed in view of what occurred in that Committee.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

I do not know whether I ought to answer the question put to me by my hon. Friend behind me, the Member for the Holderness Division. My hon. Friend asked me two questions:—First, whether the interrogations put to Mr. John Kirkwood by the Money Lending Committee were within the terms of reference to that Committee; and, secondly, whether, in the event of his again refusing to answer, further action will be taken. With regard to the second matter, I understand that Mr. Kirkwood has expressed his willingness to answer the questions before the Committee if the House orders, and therefore, the matter does not arise. The first of my hon. Friend's questions I unhesitatingly answer in the affirmative. ["Hear, hear!"] The questions put to Mr. Kirkwood by the Committee were, in my judgment—if I may express an opinion on the point—entirely within the reference to the Committee—["hear, hear!"]—and they involved no breach of confidence whatever on the part of Mr. Kirkwood. With regard to the other questions raised by the hon. Member for East Mayo, I understand you, Mr. Speaker, have ruled them out of order—[Nationalist cries of "No, no!"]—and therefore I will make no reference to them.

Motion agreed to nem. Con.

*MR. SPEAKER (addressing the Serjeant-at-Arms)

John Kirkwood will attend at the Bar.

The Serjeant-at-Arms, bearing the mace, proceeded to the outer Lobby, and immediately returned with John Kirkwood, who made three low bows as he approached the Bar.

*MR. SPEAKER

John Kirkwood—I am directed by the House to inform you that they consider that you are bound to answer the Question, and to direct you to answer it to the satisfaction of the Committee. I therefore have to admonish you to attend the Committee at the next meeting to which you are summoned and to answer the Question satisfactorily. I think I may add the satisfaction of the House at hearing that you have declared your intention of doing so. ["Hear, hear!"] I now direct you to withdraw.

MR. KIRKWOOD

May I say one word, Sir? [Some cries of "Hear, hear!"] I answered every Question fully, frankly, and unreservedly until I came to this exceptional case.

*MR SPEAKER

Order, order!

The Serjeant-at-Arms

touched Mr. Kirkwood on the shoulder, and, after a lowly bow to the House, he withdrew.