HC Deb 12 April 1897 vol 48 cc1057-64

Clause 1,—

On and after the passing of this Act, the assessor of railways and canals for the time being (hereinafter referred to as the assessor) appointed in terms of section twenty of the Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act 1854, and the clerks or other officers whom he may be allowed to employ permanently in the execution of his duties under that Act, shall each be entitled to such superannuation allowance as may be fixed by the Secretary for Scotland, not exceeding ten sixtieths of his annual salary, with the addition of one sixtieth for every additional completed year of his service beyond ten years.

Provided as follows: —

  1. (i.) The allowance shall not, except as hereinafter mentioned, be granted to any person unless he has served for a period of ten years:
  2. (ii.) The allowance of any person shall not exceed forty sixtieths of his annual salary:
  3. (iii.) The allowance shall not be granted to any person under the age of sixty years, unless he produces a medical certificate to the satisfaction of the Secretary for Scotland that he is incapable, from infirmity of mind or body, to discharge the duties of his situation, and that his infirmity is likely to be permanent:
  4. (iv.) The allowance of any person shall be calculated on the amount of annual salary received at the time of retirement, if he shall have been in receipt of the same, or in the class from which he retires, for a period of at least three years immediately before retirement; and in all other cases it shall be calculated on the average amount of annual salary received during the three years next preceding the retirement, such average to be fixed by the Secretary for Scotland.

MR. CALDWELL moved to leave out the words "On and after the passing of this Act." He protested, amidst derisive cheers, against proceeding with the Bill at that hour. The present railway assessor received his appointment on the footing that he was to get the salary attached to the office; but there was no provision whatever for a superannuation allowance. The object of this Bill was to give a superannuation allowance to this assessor. The effect of the Bill, therefore, would be to place the assessor, who was in the position of a judge, and who ought to hold the balance equally in disputes between railway companies and local authorities, under an obligation to the railway companies which promoted the Bill conferring a superannuation allowance on him.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

Order, order! The principle of the Bill was decided on the Second Reading. The hon. Member must confine his remarks to the Amendment he is moving.

MR. CALDWELL (who spoke amid continued interruption)

said he would explain the Amendment if he was allowed just half-a-minute. As far as the present assessor was concerned, if the Bill giving him a superannuation allowance were passed he would not be in that position of independence which he ought to be in—

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

Order, order! I told the hon. Gentleman he was not in order in discussing the general principle of this Bill, which has been already decided by the House. He is moving an Amendment, and he must confine himself to that Amendment.

MR. CALDWELL

said if the assessor were appointed on the footing that he was to get a superannuation allowance that was a matter of contract. But without any compromise whatever a gift of this kind ought not to be given. He begged to move his Amendment.

* THE LORD ADVOCATE

said he could not accept the Amendment. The present assessor had been a very estimable public servant, and it would be very unjust to deprive him of his chance of getting a superannuation allowance.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 127; Noes, 15.—(Division List, No. 172.)

MR. CALDWELL moved, after the words "Secretary for Scotland," to insert the words "with the consent of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury." The hon. Member pointed out that the superannuation allowance was to be fixed by the Secretary for Scotland. He thought if the Secretary for Scotland fixed the superannuation allowance it should be with the consent of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury, because the matter of superannuation was more within the Department of the Treasury, especially as they appointed the assessor.

* THE LORD ADVOCATE

said he did not propose to accept the Amendment, because he thought it was quite useless. The calculation of the scale of superannuation was automatic. The whole basis was framed on the Treasury scheme, by which a man got so many sixtieths of his salary, so that what he should get was a mere arithmetical calculation. The Secretary for Scotland was better able to judge whether a person was entitled from his services and otherwise to get a pension, and there was no use to call on the Treasury as guardians of the purse, because they did not pay him.

DR. CLARK (Caithness)

Does this Bill place this assessor in the same position as the other assessors?

* THB LORD ADVOCATE

No; the other assessors are prefectly different. The Assessor of Railways is in a position entirely by himself; the other assessors —valuation assessors—are not paid by the Government at all, but by the counties.

Mr. CALDWELL

said the Lord Advocate was quite in error in representing that under the Bill the superannuation was nothing more than an automatic scale of so many sixtieths, because Clause 2 gave an option to the Secretary for Scotland to add so many years to a man's services as he might think fit, to an extent not exceeding 20 years. If there was power to add to the extent of 20 years' service, and if there was to be that discretion, the Committee would see the Lord Advocate was not correct when he said the Secretary for Scotland had simply to act as a clerk, adding the years' service according to automatic scale.

* THE LORD ADVOCATE

said the Secretary for Scotland would be quite as well able as the Commissioners of the Treasury to act in such a case.

Amendment negatived.

MR. CALDWELL

said that in dealing with the position of assessors in Scotland the Committee had to deal with a position very much the same as the position of Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, with which the House dealt last year. It was then decided that Chairmen of Quarter Sessions should not get retiring allowances until they had completed 15 years' service. This was not like the ease of retiring Civil Servants who had to complete a certain number of years' service; these officers were in a similar position to the Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, and he therefore moved to leave out the word "ten" and to insert the word "fifteen."

* THE LORD ADVOCATE

said the Bill was modelled from the general Act, which applied to all Civil Servants, the 22nd Viet., to which the position of those Gentlemen bore more analogy than to the case the hon. Member had mentioned.

Question put, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the clause."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

stated that he thought the Ayes had it, and on his decision being challenged said, it appeared to him that the Division was frivolously claimed. He accordingly directed the Ayes and Noes successively to stand up in their places. It appeared that the Noes were 14, and the Chairman declared that the Ayes had it.—(Division List, No. 173.)

MR. HUBERT DUNCOMBE (Cumberland, Egremont)

On a point of Order, may I ask whether the hon. Members who supported your decision may have their names taken? [Loud laughter.]

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

The Standing Order says the names of the minority shall be recorded.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Will it be in order to move that the Standing Order be amended?

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

Yes, at the proper time. [Laughter.]

MR. CALDWELL

rose to move another Amendment when,

MR. DUNCOMBE

claimed to move "That the Question be now put."

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

declined then to put that Question.

MR. CALDWELL

proposed to leave out the word "sixty," and to insert the word "sixty-five."

* THE LORD ADVOCATE

said that in this case also the Bill followed the general Act dealing with Civil Servants. He would like to remind the hon. Member that some persons become incompetent long before 65. [Cheers and laughter.]

Question put, "That the word 'sixty' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

stated that he thought the Ayes had it, and on his decision being challenged said it appeared to him that the Division was frivolously claimed. He accordingly directed the Ayes and Noes successively to stand up in their places. It appeared that the Noes were 15, and the Chairman declared that the Ayes had it.—(Division List, No. 174.)

MR. CALDWELL

rose to move another Amendment, when

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

ruled that the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member was no Amendment at all. [Laughter.] The words proposed were the same as those in the Bill. [Laughter.]

MR. CALDWELL moved, in paragraph IV. to leave out the word "three," and to insert the word "five."

MR. DUNCOMBE

I rise to a point of Order. The hon. Member is reading his speech. [Laughter.]

MR. CALDWELL

I am reading the Bill. [Laughter.]

* THE LORD ADVOCATE

said that in this respect also the Bill followed the general Act dealing with Civil Servants.

Question put, "That the word 'three' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

stated that he thought the Ayes had it, and, on his decision being challenged, said it appeared to him that the Division was frivolously claimed. He accordingly directed the Ayes and the Noes successively to stand up in their places. It appeared that the Noes were 14, and the Chairman declared that the Ayes had it.—(Division List, No, 175.)

Question put, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

MR. SYDNEY GEDGE (Walsall)

, who spoke seated, and amid loud interruption and derisive cheers, said that he wished to raise a point of order. A right hon. Gentleman on the Front Opposition Bench (Mr. Seale-Hayne) had not risen in the last Division, either to support or to challenge the Chairman's decision, and he asked whether it was competent for a Member within the House to abstain from voting?

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

There is no necessity for an hon. Member to rise at all. The Standing Order simply says that those who support the decision of the Chairman shall rise, and that those who challenge it shall also rise. There is no power to compel an hon. Member to rise who does not wish to do so. [Cheers]

Question again put, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

stated that he thought the Ayes had it, and, on his decision being challenged, said it appeared to him that the Division was frivolously claimed. He accordingly directed the Ayes and the Noes successively to stand up in their places. It appeared that the Noes were 13, and the Chairman declared that the Ayes had it.—(Division List, No. 176.)

Clause 2,—