HC Deb 21 May 1896 vol 41 cc142-59

(1.) The Local Government Board shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, certify the amount—

  1. (a) of the annual grant to be paid to the Local Taxation Account; and
  2. (b) of the share of such grant to be paid annually to each spending authority,
under this Act, and for that purpose shall determine in the prescribed manner the amount which for the purposes of this Act is to be taken as having been raised during the last year before the passing of this Act by any rate to which this Act applies for the expenditure of each spending authority.

(2.) Such proportion of the whole amount so taken to be raised in respect of any hereditaments or parishes as the Local Government Board estimate to be the proportion of the total rateable value of those hereditaments or parishes which represent the value of agricultural land, shall be taken for the purposes of this Act as the amount raised during the said year, by the said authority, by the said rate, in respect of agricultural land, and one half of that amount shall be taken as the deficiency which will arise from the provisions of this Act in the produce of the said rate.

(3.) A sum equal to the total amount of the deficiencies thus estimated for all the spending authorities in England shall be the amount of the annual grant, and a sum equal to the deficiency thus estimated in the case of each spending authority shall be the share of that spending authority in the annual grant, and the Local Government Board shall certify the same accordingly.

(4.) The Local Government Board, in acting under this section, shall obtain and make such information and inquiries, and in such manner as they think fit.

(5.) The Local Government Board may amend, or for the purpose of meeting any alteration in an area or authority to which a Certificate relates may vary, a Certificate under this section, and any such Amendment or variation shall have effect from the date of the original Certificate, or any later date fixed by the Board; but, save as aforesaid, a Certificate shall be final and binding on all persons.

(6.) The Local Government Board may give a provisional Certificate, if they think necessary, for the purpose of enabling the first payments to the Local Taxation Account under this Act to be made, before they have sufficient information to enable them to give a final Certificate.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

moved to leave out the words "as soon as may be after the passing of this Act," and to insert the words "before the first day of January, One thousand eight hundred and ninety-seven." Local authorities, he said, would wish to know exactly how much they might expect to receive under the Certificate of the Local Government Board or the Treasury, and this Amendment would enable them to receive the information in time to include it in the Estimates for the coming year.

MR. CHAPLIN

could not accept the Amendment, because "as soon as may be" was what was desired—that was to say, as soon as the Local Government Board could undertake the duties placed upon it of carrying out the Act.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

asserted that the right hon. Gentleman had misconceived the purport of the Amendment, and pointed out that the moment a certificate was made each spending authority knew what amount had to be obtained from the Local Government grant. Before they could make the rate the amount must be ascertained. He was positive, if the right hon. Gentleman had the slightest acquaintance with the routine of making a rate, he would not have given what he could not help regarding as a very inadequate answer to what his hon. Friend had said in support of the Amendment. The course taken, in regard to the Amendment was this: First, they had special Sessions appointed by the Justices. Only six of them were appointed in the whole course of the year. They might have only one Session between the 1st of January and the 31st of March. Supposing the Sessions were on the 14th of January, there was no other special Sessions until the 31st of March for the passing of their rate. What was going to happen? Before they could ascertain the basis of the rate they must know the amount coming from the Local Government Board. It was for the convenience of the rating authorities that they should fix as early a date as possible for the purpose of arriving at their rate. Once they did it, they gave the usual notice and appeared before the magistrates. Let them suppose the magistrates were not willing to pass the rate for some reason or other. This would be a new Act raising all kinds of novel points, and they could not expect the magistrates, who were not very quick in their application at the very best, to understand a difficult clause like Clause 3. The right hon. Gentleman said it took him hours to discover the meaning of what the clause was, and if that were so, it was a mere arithmetical calculation as to how long it would take an ordinary county Justice to understand what its meaning was, or what, for instance, was the meaning of the seventh clause. This simply pointed to the necessity for giving time for the intellect of the county Justices to work upon this particular Act, to give them time in order that by the 31st of March it should come into full working operation. The Government had absolutely refused to postpone that date, which was to be inflexible. If they were not in a position to bring this Act into operation on the 31st of March, it would lead to all kinds of complications, because he would point out to hon. Members what had been the result of the rejection of one Amendment bearing on this. He had moved that the money should be paid after the 31st of March. The Government said no, it must be paid before. How did it work with regard to this particular Amendment? Unless the whole machinery of the local administration of the country was absolutely to be thrown out of gear, they must have the whole thing in working order by the 31st of March.

MR. CHAPLIN

The hon. Member will observe that by Sub-section 6 the Local Government Board have power to make a Provisional Order.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

could not discuss Sub-section 6 when he was dealing with Sub-section 1. It was no answer to say that a Provisional Order could be granted if necessary. Supposing that 5,000 parishes were not ready by the 31st of March; were 5,000 applications to be made and considered on their merits by the Local Government Board? The simplest, cheapest, and most effective method would be to adopt the Amendment.

MR. LOUGH

said, that as the right hon. Gentleman refused to insert a date at this point, it was interesting to notice where dates had been inserted in the Bill. There was a precise date at which the landlords were to receive the relief, and another at which the Imperial taxpayer was to begin to pay the money—the latter six months before it was necessary for any money to be paid. He would suggest that the words "as soon as may be," to which the right hon. Gentleman attached so much importance, should be left in, and the words "and not later than the 31st December" should be added. At present the claims of parishes and landlords might come pouring in for years. The claims of Scotland and Ireland had not even been considered.

MR. DILLON

thought the Amendment left too long a period to the Local Government Board to make up the total sum for Scotland. It was said that Ireland was to receive 9–100ths of the English grant. No one had yet the slightest idea of what that English grant would be, and he defied the President of the Local Government Board to give Ireland 9–100ths of a sum the right hon. Gentleman did not know himself, because it had not yet been ascertained. If, therefore, an early date was not fixed for ascertaining the amount of the English grant, Irish Members, when they asked for the amount of the Irish grant, would be told that the English grant had not yet been fixed, and be, perhaps, put off until the end of the century. He suggested November 1st instead of January 1st as the date.

*SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derbyshire, Ilkeston)

said, it would only be a businesslike proceeding to fix a date by which the work would have to be performed. The Local Government Board was overworked and understaffed, through the amount of work thrown on the Department by the successive creation of County, District, and Parish Councils. It was natural that the Department should want as much time as possible, but it would be more businesslike, and in the end more useful, to all concerned to have a date fixed than to leave the time open indefinitely.

MR. BROADHURST

said, he would like to ask who was to interpret the words "as soon as may be." [Laughter.] Was it to be the Local Government Board, or the authorities of the parishes and districts? If it was to be the Local Government Board, how would it communicate its decision to the country? If it came to a decision that was unreasonable and inconvenient to the local authorities, would they have any right of appeal? Having had a good deal to do with the Local Government Board during the last three or four years, he knew that it was making almost superhuman efforts to keep up with its work; and yet this work was going to be thrown on the Department at short notice, and without a reasonable opportunity to make themselves acquainted with it. He suggested that the Government might reasonably accept the modification suggested by his hon. Friend that in the country they might have a definite date by which to deliver their requests to the Local Government Board. Let the Solicitor General tell them what was meant by "as soon as may be."

*MR. CHARLES HARRISON (Plymouth)

also supported the Amendment, and urged the insertion of a fixed date in the Bill, because the sub section of the 5th Section gave the Local Government Board the power to give a provisional certificate. As regarded this certificate there was no power of appeal. Against the original valuation there was such a power, and that power ought not to be taken away. There would be a great incentive in an overworked department not to be very expeditious with the valuation on which the apportionment was to rest, and it would take years before the valuations of buildings could be completed.

MR. LOGAN

said, that as the objection of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill was not that the Local Government Board was overworked—an objection which he had expected him to raise—he would suggest that he might put an end to the present discussion by accepting the suggestion of the hon. Member for Mayo and put in November 1, 1896, as the date.

MR. CHAPLIN

said, he was always ready to respond to a reasonable appeal. He never wished to convey to the Committee that he was confident that all these Returns could be completed by a date named. It was for the very reason that some cases might be left out that he had declined to fix an absolute date. Under Clause 6 it was provided that all necessary Returns were to be made to the authorities. The authorities would call for these Returns as soon as the Act was passed, and in order that the work might be done as speedily as possible, they were specially instructed, under the clause now under discussion, to carry out the work as soon as may be.

MR. DALZIEL

said, that when the right hon. Gentleman rose he thought he was going to make a concession, but the right hon. Gentleman's remarks were almost as difficult to understand as the third clause of the Bill. As far as he understood the right hon. Gentleman, he had not indicated any willing- ness to accept either of the suggestions made from the Opposition side of the House. The course which the Government had adopted with regard to this Bill was most extraordinary, because with one single exception they had refused to allow any Amendment to be made in it. There was every ground for having a date fixed, because "as soon as may be" really meant a sort of "go as you please" mode of procedure. If this Amendment were not adopted the people in the country would never make up their minds when they should make a Return of the figures. It would be absolutely impossible for the Local Government Board to certify before the 1st January 1897. The Government was pledged to introduce during the present Session a Measure dealing on the same lines with Scotland and Ireland, and unless the Local Government Board made out their certificate they would not know how much they were voting for this Bill. The amount might be a million and a half or a million and a quarter, but until they had the certificate of the Local Government Board the exact amount could not be known, and they would be groping in the dark. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman who, no doubt, was anxious to facilitate as much as he possibly could the passing of this Measure, to accept this small Amendment.

MR. LEWIS

rose to correct a misapprehension which the right hon. Gentleman appeared to entertain in regard to his position with regard to this Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman was under the impression that he adhered to his exclusion of the words "as soon as may be," but as soon as it was suggested by his hon. Friend the Member for Islington that it would be advisable to retain those words and add "not later than the 1st of January, 1897," he at once mentally assented to it, and hoped the right hon. Gentleman would have seen his way to have accepted that very reasonable form of Amendment. That would meet, practically, all the object- tions the right hon. Gentleman could entertain. They had the authority in support of the Amendment of a Gentleman who had been at the Local Government Board in an official position for three years, and—he spoke with the utmost deference of the right hon. Gentleman himself—but he had been at the Local Government Board only a few months. This proposal was in the interest of the local authorities throughout the country, as the new provisions now being made would fundamentally alter in many respects their whole scheme of rating. The hon. Member for Carnarvon had shown clearly what the difficulties of the Assessment Committees, magistrates, and local authorities would be, and he ventured again to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment in the form in which it had been amended by the hon. Member for Islington.

MR. J. COLVILLE (Lanarkshire, N.E.)

also supported the Amendment.

MR. JOSEPH A. PEASE

said no reason had been given for rejecting this Amendment. There was either on answer, or the Government answer was so bad that they dare not advance it. ["Divide!"] There was no justification for postponing this question; it was a mere matter of extra staff.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

rose to continue the discussion, when

MR. PARKER SMITH

rose in his place, and claimed to move "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 198; Noes, 75.—(Division List, No. 178.)

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 201; Noes, 75.—(Division List, No. 179.)

MR. CHAPLIN

claimed to move "That the question 'that Clause 4 stand part of the Bill,' be now put." [Ministerial, chteers and Opposition cries of "Shame" and "Gag."]

MR. MCKENNA (who remained seated with his hat on)

On a point of Order, Mr. Lowther, may I state that while Clause 2 was under discussion a matter was postponed until we reached Clause 4? [Interruptions.] The question which was raised on Clause 2 was whether the Government relief was to be one-half of the amount which was actually to be raised. [Ministerial cries of "Order!"]

*THE CHAIRMAN

That is not a point of Order. [Ministerial cheers.]

MR. MCKENNA

The question was actually raised, and it was arranged that it should be postponed until now. [Opposition cheers and Ministerial cries of "Order!"]

*THE CHAIRMAN

The point alluded to is not a point of Order. [Ministerial cheers.]

An HON. MEMBER

It is a breach of faith. [Opposition cheers and Ministerial cries of "Order!"]

MR MCKENNA

The point I wish to urge is, whether the pledge which was then given—[Ministerial cries of "Order!"]—that the point could be raised again—

*THE CHAIRMAN

I understand the point the hon. Member is making, and I have said to him once or twice that it is not a point of Order in the sense of the word, that it is a point for me to decide. [Ministerial cheers and Opposition cries of "Oh!"]

SIR W. HARCOURT (who also remained seated with his hat on)

May I ask you, Sir—[interruptions and cries of "Order!"]—whether I am mistaken in my recollection that it was at your own suggestion that my hon. Friend the Member for North Monmouthshire postponed this Amendment until we came to Clause 4—[loud Opposition cheers]—and upon that suggestion of yours he postponed his Amendment until we came to Clause 4? [Renewed Opposition cheers.]

*The CHAIRMAN

It was hardly my suggestion that he should raise the question on Clause 4. [Ministerial cheers.] What I pointed out was that it was not in order to raise it on Clause 2. [Ministerial cheers.] The hon. Member has had an opportunity in the two hours that have elapsed to raise the question. [Ministerial cheers and Opposition cries of "Shame" and "Gag!"] The question is that the question that Clause 4 stand part of the Bill be now put. [Cheers and counter cheers.]

An HON. MEMBER

Don't go out!

DR. TANNER

Stick to the family! [Cries of "Order."]

*THE CHAIRMAN

ordered the House to be cleared for the Division, but a considerable body of Members on the Opposition side of the House remained in their seats. Among these were Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Herbert Lewis, Mr. Dillon, Dr. Tanner, Mr. Donal Sullivan, and Sir J. Brunner. As several of these hon. Members rose, there were cries of "Sit still!" from Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE and Dr. TANNER. Finally, when all but those who remained seated had passed into the Division Lobbies, the CHAIRMAN said, I must request hon. Members to proceed to the Division Lobbies. [Cries of "No!" from the Members who remained seated.] If hon. Members will not proceed to the Lobby, I shall have to direct the attention of the Speaker to their conduct. [Cheers.]

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I decline to go out under the circumstances.

As no hon. Member moved from his seat, the CHAIRMAN ordered the doors of the House to be opened, and Members who had left the House returned from the Division Lobbies.

Mr. SPEAKER was summoned, and the House resumed. The appearance of Mr. Speaker was greeted with loud cheers from both sides of the House.

*THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES

, who addressed Mr. Speaker from the Treasury Bench, said: I have to report to you, Sir, that a Division having recently been called, I directed the Ayes to go into the the Aye Lobby, and the Noes to go into the No Lobby. But some hon. Members who had called out "No!" declined to proceed into the "No" Lobby. I requested them to take the usual course and proceed to the Lobby; but the hon. Members still declined, and I heard some cries of "Sit still!" I am not in a position to give the names of all the Members who were present, for there were a considerable number; but amongst those who were present and who declined to obey my summons were the hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs, the hon. Member for the Flint Boroughs, the hon. Member for East Mayo, and the hon. Member for Mid Cork.

*MR. SPEAKER

It is quite clear that the Chairman of the Committees has followed the proper course in ordering the clearance of the House during a Division, and those who refused to clear the House are not justified in their refusal by any notion which they may entertain as to whether the Division should or should not have been called. Therefore their action was out of order, and if that conduct is persisted in, of course I shall have to name those hon. Members to the House. [Cheers.] Do I understand that the hon. Members for Carnarvon and the Flint Boroughs refuse to clear the House?

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

That is so, Sir. As a protest I declined to go out. [Ministerial laughter, and cries of "Oh!"]

*MR. SPEAKER

Do I understand the hon. Member for the Flint Boroughs to take the same course?

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

I regard this Bill, Sir [Ministerial cries of "Order!"] as legalised robbery. [Renewed cries of "Order!"] When Clause 4 was put as a whole, a clause to which there were many Amendments on the Paper, I declined to leave the House as a protest.

SIR JOHN BRUNNER (Cheshire, Northwich)

On the point of order, Sir, I am bound to say—

*MR. SPEAKER

I am not speaking upon a point of order; I am asking a question. Do I understand the hon. Member for East Mayo also declined to clear the House?

MR. DILLON

Yes, Sir, I did decline.

*MR. SPEAKER

And the hon. Member for Mid Cork?

DR. TANNER

Most certainly, Sir.

MR. D. SULLIVAN (Westmeath, S.)

Many other Members desire to associate themselves with those hon. Members. I am one of them—the Member for Westmeath.

*MR. SPEAKER

Does the hon. Member persist in taking the same course?

MR. D. SULLIVAN

Yes, Sir, with pleasure. [Laughter and cheers.]

*MR. SPEAKER

Those hon. Members having distinctly defied the authority of the Chair, and having persisted in so doing, I must, in consequence, name them to the House. I name Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Herbert Lewis, Mr. John Dillon, Dr. Tanner—

DR. TANNER

Thank you, very much, Sir. [Laughter and cries of "Order!"]

*MR. SPEAKER

And Mr. Donal Sullivan, for disregarding the authority of the Chair, and disorderly conduct. [Loud cheers.]

SIR J. BRUNNER

(who was received with cheers and cries of "Order!"): I desire to associate myself—[Loud cries of "Order!"]

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

(who was also loudly cheered from the Ministerial Benches): I beg, Sir, to move that Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Herbert Lewis, Mr. Dillon, Dr. Tanner, and Mr. Donal Sullivan be suspended from the service of the House. [Loud cheers.]

The House divided. Mr. Speaker named Mr. Broadhurat and Sir J. Brunner as Tellers for the Noes. Mr. Daniel Macaleese (Monaghan, N.), and Mr. Michael Davitt (Mayo, S.) remained in their seats when all other Members had left the House.

MR. DAVITT

addressing Mr. Speaker, said: I remain as a protest, Sir.

*MR. SPEAKER

I understand that the hon. Members object to the course taken by the Chairman of Committees; but I would point out to them that they are now wanting in respect to the Chair in refusing to clear the House for a Division. It is not a rational protest to stay in the House. I hope the hon. Members will see the propriety of going into the Lobby.

MR. MACALEESE

I assure you, Sir, it is out of no disrespect to the Chair that this course was taken by my Colleague and myself.

*MR. SPEAKER

However unintentional it may be, it is disrespect to refuse to leave the House when the Chair, in the exercise of its duty, has put a question on which a Division is called.

MR. MACALEESE

I am very sorry you should think so, Sir, but I still hold it to be my duty to remain.

*MR. SPEAKER

Then I must ask the Serjeant-at-Arms to remove the hon. Members.

The Deputy-Serjeant at Arms (Mr. F. R. GOSSETT) advanced, and the two hon. Members accompanied him to the Inner Lobby.

The House divided on the Question "That Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Herbert Lewis, Mr. Dillon, Dr. Tanner, and Mr. Donal Sullivan be suspended from the service of the House ":—Ayes, 209; Noes, 58.—(Division List, No. 180, appended.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Folkestone, Viscount Murray, Andrew Graham (Bute)
Arnold, Alfred Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Galloway, William Johnson Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Arrol, Sir William Garfit, William Nicol, Donald Ninian
Ascroft, Robert Gedge, Sydney Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. (City of London) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Baden-Powell, Sir Geo. Smyth Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Baillie, James, E. B. (Inv'rn'ss) Giles, Charles Tyrrell Oswald James Francis
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r) Goldsworthy, Major-General Parkes, Ebenezer
Balfour, Gerald William (Leeds) Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (S. Georges) Pease, Arthur (Darlington)
Banbury, Frederick George Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Pease, Henry Fell (Yorks, N. R.)
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Goulding, Edward Alfred Pender, James (Northants)
Barry, A. H. Smith- (Hunts.) Graham, Henry Robert Penn, John
Bass, Hamar Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Pirie, Captain Duncan Vernon
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Gretton, John Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Gull, Sir Cameron Pollock, Harry Frederick
Bethell, Commander Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Pretyman, Capt. Ernest George
Bigwood, James Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm Pryce-Jones, Edward
Bill, Charles Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Purvis, Robert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hardy, Laurence Rankin, James
Bond, Edward Heaton, John Henniker Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Helder, Augustus Reed, Henry Byron (Bradford)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Renshaw, Charles Bine
Brodrick, Hon. St. John Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley (Staffs.) Rentoul, James Alexander
Brookfield, A. Montagu Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Ridley, Rt. Hon Sir Matthew W.
Bullard, Sir Harry Holden, Angus Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson
Burdett-Coutts, W. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Butcher, John George Howell, William Tudor Robinson, Brooke
Carlile, William Walter Hozier, James Henry Cecil Round, James
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hudson, George Bickersteth Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Drbyshr) Hulse, Edward Henry Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Cayzer, Charles William Hunt, Sir Frederick Seager Rutherford, John
Cecil, Lord Hugh Hutchinson, Capt, G. W. Grice- Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Isaacson, Frederick Wootton Savory, Sir Joseph
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Bir.) Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Seely, Charles Hilton
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.) Johnston, William (Belfast) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Johnstone, John H. (Sussex) Shaw, William Rawson (Halifax)
Charrington, Spencer Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Kenny, William Sidebotham J. W. (Cheshire)
Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth) Kimber, Henry Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lafone, Alfred Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lawrence, Edwin (Cornwall) Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Combe, Charles Harvey Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry) Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Compton, Lord Alwyne (Beds.) Legh, Hon. Thomas W. (Lanc.) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Lockwood, Lt. -Col. A R. (Essex) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd) Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Cox, Robert Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool) Thornton, Percy M.
Cripps, Charles Alfred Lorne, Marquess of Tollemache, Henry James
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Loyd, Archie Kirkman Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Curzon, Rt Hn. G. N. (Lanc. S. W. Lucas-Shadwell, William Usborne, Thomas
Curzon, Viscount (Bucks.) Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Valentia, Viscount
Dalbiac, Major Philip Hugh Macartney, W. G. Ellison Wanklyn, James Leslie
Davies, Horatio D. (Chatham) Macdona, John Cumming Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe)
Denny, Colonel M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs) Warkworth, Lord
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. M'Ewan (William) Webster, Sir R. E. (Isle of Wight)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- M'Killop, James Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)
Doxford, William Theodore Martin, Richard Biddulph Wigram, Alfred Money
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm.)
Evans, Sir Francis H.(South'ton) Milbank, Powlett Charles John Willox, John Archibald
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Fielden, Thomas Milner, Sir Frederick George Wodehouse, Edmond R. (Bath)
Finch, George H. Milton, Viscount Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Monckton, Edward Philip Wyndham, George
Fisher, William Hayes Monk, Charles James Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
FitzGerald, R. Uniacke Penrose More, Robert Jasper TELLERS FOR THE AYES, Sir
Fitz Wygram, Sir Frederick Morley, Charles (Breconshire) William Walrond and Mr.
Flannery, Fortescue Morrell, George Herbert Anstruther.
Fletcher, Sir Henry Mount, William George
Flower, Ernest Muntz, Philip A.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Harwood, George Pearson, Sir Weetman D.
Allen, Wm. (Newc. under-Lyme) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Scale- Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Hazell, Walter Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Bainbridge, Emerson Horniman, Frederick John Reekitt, Harold James
Caldwell, James Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Cawley, Frederick Kearley, Hudson E. Robson, William Snowdon
Channing, Francis Allston Kitson, Sir James Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Lambert, George Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Colville, John Langley, Batty Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Dalziel, James Henry Leuty, Thomas Richmond Tanner, Charles Kearns
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) Lewis, John Herbert Wallace, Robert (Perth)
Davitt, Michael Lloyd-George, David Wedderburn, Sir William
Dillon, John Logan, John William Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Doogan, P. C. Lough, Thomas Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfolk)
Doughty, George Macaleese, Daniel Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Dunn, Sir William M'Kenna, Reginald Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsfld)
Engledow, Charles John M'Laren, Charles Benjamin TELLERS FOR THE NOES, Mr.
Goddard, Daniel Ford Maden, John Henry Broadhoust and Sir John
Griffith, Ellis J. Nussey, Thomas Willans Brunner.
Haldane, Richard Burdon O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Harrison, Charles Oldroyd, Mark
*MR. SPEAKER

, after announcing the numbers, said: I must now call on the five hon. Members to withdraw.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

For how long, Sir?

*MR. SPEAKER

It is provided by the Standing Orders that the suspension is for a week.

Mr. SPEAKER

thereupon directed the said Members to withdraw, and they withdrew accordingly, amid the cheers of their supporters.

SIR W. HARCOURT

I hope, Sir, that after the painful scene which has now occurred—[Opposition laughter]—in this House, into which and its causes I should not be in order in entering, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House will agree with me that it would not be proper—[Loud Ministerial cries of "No!"]

*MR. SPEAKER

I hope hon. Members will allow the right hon. Gentleman to continue.

SIR W. HARCOURT

, continuing—that it would not be proper or for the advantage and the credit of this House that they should attempt to continue the proceedings to-night. Therefore, I beg to move "That this House do now adjourn." [Cheers and loud cries of dissent from the Ministerial side.]

*MR. SPEAKER

I have a difficulty in putting that Motion at the present moment, because when I was called in the Committee was in the middle of a Division, and that Division must be disposed of before any other Motion can be entertained. [Ministerial cheers.]

SIR W. HARCOURT

I ask you, Sir, as a matter of Order, whether, that Division having been taken, according to your view I shall have an opportunity of making this Motion to you in the Chair. That is what I desire to do. [Cheers.] With you in the Chair, I should make the Motion that this House do now adjourn. [Cheers.]

MR. SPEAKER

When the Division is taken on the Closure, it will be taken with the Chairman in the Chair, and then the Committee will resume in the ordinary course, and unless I come into the Chair again through some action of the Chairman or Committee the right hon. Gentleman will not be able to make his Motion to me in the Chair.

SIR W. HARCOURT

Then I shall move that the Chairman do leave the Chair and report progress. [Cheers.] Then in those circumstances, with you in the Chair, I shall make the Motion that the House do now adjourn.

MR. SPEAKER

I must leave the Chair in order that the business may be taken up at the point at which it was left when I took the Chair.

Thereupon the House again resolved itself into Committee on the Bill, and the Chairman resumed the Chair, amid Ministerial cheers.

The Question was again put, "That the Question 'That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill' be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 200; Noes, 71.—(Division List, No. 181.)

Question put accordingly, "That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 198; Noes, 70.—(Division List, No. 182.)

Clause 5,—