HC Deb 02 June 1896 vol 41 cc299-302
MR. JOHN MORLEY

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, whether he will, before Thursday, lay before the House any telegrams that have passed with the Government of India as to the dispatch of an Indian force to Suakim?

* LORD GEORGE HAMILTON

Although I could not give the telegrams, yet Her Majesty's Government consider that the House should be in possession of the views of the Indian Government before any discussion takes place upon the dispatch of Indian troops to Suakim, and I am considering how that object can best be attained.

MR. J. MORLEY

I may say that I only put the word "telegrams" in the Question, because I understood the noble Lord the other day promised my right hon. Friend and hon. Friends behind me that the telegrams should be produced.

MR. T. R. BUCHANAN (Aberdeenshire, E.)

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, whether he has arranged with the Home Government that all charges for extra allowances, pensions, or gratuities to officers or soldiers of the Indian force sent to Suakim, and charges for pensions or gratuities to the families of officers or soldiers of the force killed or disabled during the expedition, should be paid by the Imperial Exchequer; and whether, to avoid loss by delay in the settlement of accounts between the two Governments, he will secure, as was done when the Indian troops went to Malta, an advance from the Treasury to cover temporary outlays by India on Imperial account?

* LORD GEORGE HAMILTON

It has been arranged that all extra expenses shall be borne by the Treasury Chest, which term includes such as are mentioned in the first part of the Question. As soon as an estimate can be obtained from India as to the amount of any extra expenses incurred on Imperial account, application will be made to the Treasury for an advance.

MR. BUCHANAN

I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman what was the nature and number of the force of all arms that was being sent from India to Suakim?

* LORD GEORGE HAMILTON

The force consists of one regiment native cavalry, 13 British officers and noncommissioned officers, and 500 natives of all ranks; one native mountain battery, five British officers and non-commissioned officers, and 265 natives of all ranks; one company sappers and miners, seven British officers and non-commissioned officers, and 168 natives of all ranks; two regiments native infantry, 26 British officers and non-commissioned officers, and 1,474 natives of all ranks—Total, 51 British officers and non-commissioned officers, and 2,407 natives of all ranks.

MR. LABOUCHERE

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether a communication was received by Her Majesty's Government on 10th March from the Italian Ambassador in London, to the effect that the Governor of Massowah had telegraphed that 10,000 Dervishes were said to be hovering around Kassala, and asking whether Her Majesty's Government would decide to make a diversion by an advance on the Nile; whether the next day telegraphic orders were sent to Lord Cromer directing him to make a military diversion towards Dongola; and whether, before this advance was ordered, the Egyptian Government had been consulted on the matter and expressed its approval?

* MR. CURZON

Some time before the communications alluded to by the hon. Gentleman, the question of an advance against the Dervishes had been under discussion with the Egyptian Government, who were anxious that such operations should be undertaken in order to insure the security of Egypt. With respect, however, to the time and circumstances of the action which Her Majesty's Government sanctioned, we were undoubtedly influenced by the representations which we received from the Italian Government of the danger to which the Italian position at Kassala wan exposed, the fall of which place at that time would have involved a serious menace to the security of Egyptian territory.

MR. J. MORLEY

Do we understand that Her Majesty's Government had under consideration communications from Egypt as to the threatened advance of the Dervishes before the 10th of March—that is to say, before the Italian Ambassador waited upon Lord Salisbury?

* MR. CURZON

Yes, Sir. There had been communications between Her Majesty's Government and Lord Cromer on behalf of the Egyptian Government prior to that date as to the danger to Egyptian territory if a Dervish victory or a Dervish advance occurred.

* SIR CHARLES DILKE

Are the Government, under present circumstances, still of opinion that Lord Cromer's Dispatches cannot be laid before Parliament?

* MR. CURZON

I do not understand how that Question arises, and I do not think it desirable to depart from the ordinary custom in regard to this matter.

* SIR C. DILKE

It arises out of the answer just given. The right hon. Gentleman alluded to Dispatches communicated through Lord Cromer as to the views of the Egyptian Government in regard to an advance by the Dervishes. Cannot they be laid before Parliament?

* MR. CURZON

No; I cannot depart from the answer I have previously given.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, E.

My noble Friend the Under Secretary for India communicated to me, after Question time last night, that he had received a telegraphic message from the Indian Government earnestly pressing that no decision should be come to by Her Majesty's Government as to the cost of the Indian troops until their views were in the possession of her Majesty's Government. That is a request which we cannot refuse, and, under these circumstances, I must ask the House to depart from the arrangement made for next Thursday, and to allow some later day to be assigned for this discussion.

MR. J. MORLEY

Of course, the position taken up by the right hon. Gentleman in respect to conformity in the wishes of the Indian Government is one Which we are bound to respect; but we ought to understand that as early a date is possible should be found for the discussion of the subject of the employment of Indian troops without the consent of Parliament, apart from the views of the Indian Government as to the charge. ["Hear, hear!"]

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

The right hon. Gentleman will see that it is absolutely impossible for me to do more than undertake to fix the earliest possible day after the Dispatch has been received from the Indian Government and due time given to my noble Friend to consider it.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouthshire, W.)

I understand that a Dispatch is coming. How long will it take to reach this country?

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

A fortnight or three weeks.

SIR W. HARCOURT

Does the right hon. Gentleman say we shall have no opportunity of discussing the Dispatch of troops to Suakim apart from the question of who is to pay, which is a subsidiary question altogether? We desire to have an opportunity of discussing the subject of the dispatch of the troops.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY

I think the right hon. Gentleman will feel that he cannot ask the Government to give two days to this discussion. The right hon. Gentleman appears to have forgotten that under his own Government in 1885 the troops were actually engaged before a Resolution was brought before the House at all. [Laughter.]

MR. LABOUCHERE

Then I beg to say that it is not beyond the bounds of probability that we may take a day. [Laughter.]