HC Deb 30 July 1896 vol 43 cc1094-102

(1.) The Treasury shall issue out of the Consolidated Fund or the growing produce thereof such sums not exceeding in the whole the sum of three million pounds as may be required by a Secretary of State for defraying the costs of the construction of the Uganda Railway, whether incurred before or after the passing of this Act.

(2.) Before any money is issued under this section, the Secretary of State shall submit to the Treasury an estimate, with such details as may he required by them, of the expenditure and period for and within which it is proposed to expend that money.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)

asked whether the sum of three millions which this Bill empowered the Treasury to spend involved the cost of any military expedition which might be necessary for the protection of the workmen if they were embarrassed by the native tribes.

* THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

was understood to say that such cost was not included in the three millions, nor was it anticipated that it would be required.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

asked if it would be possible to carry a railway through this country without having a very strong protective force.

* THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said that was shown by the fact that at the present moment surveyors were employed along the whole route.

* MR. R. W. PERKS (Lincolnshire, Louth)

said they had had no accurate information as to why the sum asked for was fixed at three and not two or live millions. They were told in the, Report that by substituting a 3 ft. gauge for a 3 ft. 0 in gauge, by reducing the weight of the rails from 50 to 35 lbs., and by other economies they could obtain their object for a sum of about.£750,000, plus the cost of a road. If they adopted the Reports of those gentlemen, they might reasonably come to the conclusion that the Vote of £3,000,000 was far too much. But, on the other hand, if they based their estimate on the cost of the construction of railways in South Africa or in India, they must come to the conclusion that the expenditure must exceed £3,000,000. The Under Secretary for the Colonies, in his speech on the Second Reading of the Bill, referred to railways which had been constructed in Ceylon, Trinidad, and Western Australia, under the auspices of the Colonial Office, and which the right hon. Gentleman considered might be accepted as guides in this South African venture. But he ventured to say that those railways were mere child's play, were toys, compared with a railway through the unknown, and uninhabited, and hot region of tropical Africa. He therefore thought the Committee should be informed how the Government had arrived at £3,000,000 as the probable cost of the railway. Then he would like to know who was in control—who was responsible? A sort of nebulous Government authority had been created. Men had been selected from various Departments to form a composite body who were entrusted with the expenditure of this huge sum. But who was responsible? Who was going to present 10 Parliament the detailed Reports of the progress of the work and its cost which ought to be presented to Parliament? It was true that the Treasury might give the House any information they chose, but there was nothing in the Bill requiring the managers of tin undertaking to submit to the Treasury, periodically, information that would have to be given to a commercial body before they would pay from month to month the necessary amounts for the line. In dealing with public money they ought to see that it was as carefully expended as their own money in connection with their own private commercial ventures. Again, they had no security as to the time this railway would be finished. They could not get out of a labourer employed by the Government as contractor the same amount of work that would be got from him if employed by a private contractor, and the gentlemen at the head of the undertaking had, like the labourer, no incentive to complete the work. Everyone in the employment of the Government night say, "I am working for Her Majesty's Government, which has a bottomless purse." He thought the railway one of the wildest commercial ventures ever submitted to the consideration of the House, and the £3,000,000 or more that were to be spent upon it were intrusted to a new spending department created for the purpose, which, of course, had given no guarantee that it was entitled to this confidence. He had not one word to say against the principle of the Bill. But what he was anxious to secure was that this railway should be cheaply and effectively constructed, that periodical Reports as to its progress should be presented to Parliament, and that it should be completed within a specified time.

* THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said he entirely sympathised with the views expressed in the last sentence of the hon. Gentleman. The Government wanted the railway cheaply and effectively constructed; they wanted to have full information in regard to its construction given to Parliament during the time of construction; and they wanted it finished as early as might be. He would undertake on the part of the Treasury that detailed information in regard to the estimates for any part of the line, or in regard to the actual cost of any part of the line, should he demanded from the Committee intrusted with its construction and he from time to time presented to Parliament.

* MR. PERKS

That quite satisfies me.

* THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EX-CHEQUER

said that, as the hon. Member was aware, a Memorandum had been presented to Parliament giving in a businesslike form the estimated cost of the 100 miles of the line which had been completely surveyed, and fuller details would be furnished when the work was done. A similar course would be followed in regard to other parts of the line during the progress of the undertaking. The construction of the line would be controlled by the Committee just as similar works in India and the colonies were frequently controlled by Boards of Directors in London. The Committee was composed of men of the greatest experience in such matters, and an engineer of special capacity in such work was on the spot superintending the construction of the line. The staff of the Crown Agents for the Colonies, who were accustomed to such work, would be employed in ordering the necessary supplies which would be sent out from home and in managing all the details. Sir Montagu Ommanney would give his services gratuitously, and a commission of only 1 per cent. would be charged by the Crown Agents on the actual cost of the stores and materials shipped. If the hon. Member would read the long-Report presented to Parliament in 1893 on this subject he would And that the line had been surveyed far more carefully than he imagined, and the nature of the work was fairly compared with the work on similar railways in India running through the same kind of country. It was shown that the actual cost of those Indian railways was in one case less per mile than the estimate for this railway, which was based on the best information the Committee could obtain. The Government had taken every precaution that the money voted by Parliament should be usefully and economically laid out; and they were convinced, after the careful inquiry by the Committee appointed by the late Government, that, having regard to the peculiar circumstances of this line, it would not only be much cheaper but much better, politically speaking, for the success of the whole undertaking that it should be in the hands of the Government rather than in those of a firm of contractors.

MR. LEWIS

said that the light hon. Gentleman had not explained how it was that the original estimate of £1,750, 000 had been increased to £3,000,000.

* THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said that the first estimate was cut down to the lowest possible sum. The gauge was smaller; the weight of the rails was 35lb. per yard instead of 501b.—a reduction which sacrificed efficiency to economy; there was no provision for ballasting the line; and all the provisions for rolling-stock, station buildings, etc., were cut down to a point which was certainly not consistent with efficiency. That was how the estimate of £1,750,000 was arrived at, and hon. Members would see that by increasing the gauge, increasing the weight of rails, allowing for proper ballasting, rolling-stock, and buildings that estimate must be largely increased. On the recommendation of the Committee a considerable sum had also been added to provide for a possibly greater expenditure on a part of the region traversed which was believed to be liable to floods.

MR. LEWIS

admitted that if no allowance were made in the original estimate for ballasting the line, it was obviously untrustworthy. Rut it was very necessary that the expenses should be cut down to the lowest point consistent with efficiency. There was no trade to be expected such as would justify an expensive line; and £3,000,000 largely exceeded the necessities of the case.

* MR. PERKS

said that the Report presented to the House in 1895, and signed by those who were still in charge of the scheme, stated that rails weighing 35 lbs. a yard would permit of locomotives which would drag the heaviest traffic to be expected up the steepest gradient. All the big lump sums quoted in the estimate had an "etcetera" at the end; and it was obvious that the bulk of the expenditure came under the "etcetera." The Committee ought to be supplied with the same detailed information which would ordinarily be given by engineers in constructing a railway.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

thought that this was a dangerous adventure. £3,000,000 were to be placed at the absolute disposal of the Secretary of State, in order to convert him into a constructor of railways. He did not believe that even the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs would make a reputation as a railway constructor. He was surprised to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer talk as if there had been complete surveys of this line. In the Paper issued in the present year by the Secretary to the Treasury, it was stated that throughout there was an absence of solid information about the line.— It became evident to the Committee after examination that detailed surveys might modify the conclusion of the able officers who surveyed the route in 1892. And again:— The reports of the chief Engineer have shown that the ascent from the coast to the tableland will be more expensive than was anticipated. Thence through broken country to the Vaal Ranges, the estimates are thought to be approximately correct. Did any human being ever construct a railway on estimates and surveys "thought to be approximately correct?"

Then they came to this:— Consideration of recent reports on the meteorological and climatic conditions raises doubts regarding the sufficiency of bridging allowed for. But bridging was one of the most important elements in the whole thing. And then, finally, as regarded the difficulties of the country after the Mau range was reached, they were told that there was an absence of detailed surveys. Putting all these things together, it appeared to him that this was the most monstrous adventure the House was ever asked to embark upon. ["Hear, hear!"] He could not conceive anything more unsatisfactory than handing over to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the construction of a railway into a country of which absolutely nothing was known.

DR. CLARK

did not think the class of railway now proposed, which seemed to be similar to what was found in Egypt and Rajputana, was the one they ought to build there at all. The original scheme for a light railway was a much better one. The rails were simply fished together, and could carry in their own weight as much traffic as would require to be carried. The heavy railway would be much more costly. If they were making this railway on ordinary commercial principles they would make a survey for 100 miles, they would know all the gradients and the water-courses, and would have all the information, and then they would get an estimate from contractors as to the cost of that portion. And so on, portion by portion, and in that way they would vote each year the money required. Under the plan proposed, the native labour would be very costly. There would not be the same supervision as there would supposing they had a contractor to see that economy was observed. The board of three or four gentlemen who would meet were in London, knew very little of what was done out in Africa, and would be entirely dependent upon Reports sent home. He expected that £3,000,000 was not a moiety of what the actual cost would be. They would not be able to make these railways as cheaply in Africa as in India—at least, they never had been made as cheaply hitherto. They would get off cheap if the railway was built for six or seven millions. He supposed the idea in making this railway was to carry it down until it met the Egyptian railway, and then they would have the same gauge from Alexandria to Mombasa. He was very doubtful about the whole enterprise.

* MR. PERKS

called attention to the railway gauge, and pointed out that in a Report of April, 1896, the gauge of one metre, or 3 ft. 3 in., was recommended upon identically the same ground that 3 ft. 6 ins. was recommended in the earlier report. As the latter gauge was that of the South African and Egyptian railways, would it not be better to adopt the original suggestion and increase the width of the rails to 3 ft. 6 in.?

* THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. GEORCE CURZON,) Lancashire, Southport

said that the Government had decided that the 3 ft. gauge was too small, and the selection therefore lay between 3 ft. 3 in. and 3 ft. 6 in. The considerations which finally decided the Committee to select the metre gauge were that it was a gauge which had been adopted over between 7,000 and 8,000 miles of Indian railways; and it would be a great advantage to have the use of a common rolling-stock. They also thought that the 3 ft. 6 in. gauge was rather a heavier line than was contemplated. The question as to the difference between the Reports of the Committees at different times was a difference between a light railway and a more solid and substantial railway. Stress had been laid on the uncertainty with regard to the surveys, especially in connection with the mountainous regions. A survey of the country had been made by the first survey party, but of course, in common with all preliminary surveys, it was open to amendment. As to the contract system, he stated that in many parts of the Empire they had abandoned the system of constructing railways by contract, substituting the Departmental system, notably in Ceylon. There had been a distinct economy in the supersession of the contract by the Departmental system.

* MR. PERKS

said that in the estimate of stations the Government had added to the ordinary expenditure the sum necessary for converting them into places of refuge and making the station officials take the place of military men.

* MR. CURZON

said that further information rendered it unlikely that those fortifications would be necessary.

MR. BRYN ROBERTS

asked whether the working expenses would include any sum for depreciation and repairs. He thought that the Report was rather optimistic. Renewals and repairs would be a very heavy item in a country of this kind. He understood that a detailed survey would only be made as the work progressed. That was not satisfactory. The same course ought to be followed as was followed in the case of the construction of a railway in this country. Here there were always complete plans, with a complete estimate, and with complete specifications. The Government were proceeding in a, blindfold, haphazard, and happy-go-lucky way. They had been told that only last week someone who had been engaged in surveying the ground had said that it might be possible to discover a new route. Apparently, therefore, after the line had been carried over some 20 miles, a better route might be found. Not a single inch of railway ought to be constructed before the best possible route had been discovered. In the times of the Railway mania no wilder scheme than this was entered upon.

MR. LLOYD - GEORGE

said that no board of railway directors would dream of embarking upon such an enterprise as this upon such scanty information as the Foreign Office possessed. In the Memorandum that had been issued they found the following statements:— It became evident to the Committee (a Committee of experts) on further examination that detailed surveys might modify the conclusions of the able officers who had surveyed the route in 1892. The reports of the chief engineer have shown that the ascent from the coast to the tableland will be more expensive than was anticipated. Each successive report modified or enlarged its predecessor, but every one of them had this peculiarity—that it increased the estimate. If they were going to make a railway through a swamp, they ought to know something about its nature. Then there was the difficulty caused by floods. These were points on which definite conclusions ought to be come to before money was expended. The optimism of the reports was extraordinary. The idea that 15,000,000 passengers would travel over this line in the course of a year was preposterous. He wanted to know what would be the cost of policing this line. The Masai were a very warlike people, and their attitude towards the line was a matter of extreme uncertainty. Supposing that they should be hostile, would the cost of defending the workmen and of policing the railway be included in the three millions, or would that sum merely cover the cost of laying down the line?

Question put, "That Clause 1 stand I part of the Bill.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 125; Noes, 35.—(Division List, No. 357.)

On the return of the CHAIEMAN of WAYS and MEANS, after the usual interval, the Committee considered—

Clause 2,—