HC Deb 28 July 1896 vol 43 cc889-94

(1.) The Land Law Acts, except section seven of the Land Law (Ireland) Aft, 1881 (which amends the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870, in respect of compensation for improvements), shall not apply to the following tenancies:—

  1. (a.) To a tenancy in any holding' which is not substantially either agricultural or pastoral in its character, or partly agricultural and partly pastoral, or to a letting of land, the main object of which is for a residence:
  2. (b.) To a tenancy in any holding which substantially consists of—
    1. (i) land being or forming part of a home farm; or
    2. (ii) land which when first demised was demesne, and which the provisions of the contract of tenancy, or the circumstances of the case, show was intended to be preserved as demesne or resumed as demesne by the landlord; or
    3. (iii) land incorporated in a demesne by the tenant, and forming part of a demesne at the time the application to fix a fair rent is made:
    890
  3. (c.) To a tenancy in a holding (other than a holding let to be used wholly or mainly for a dairy farm) which is let to be used wholly-or-mainly for the purpose of pasture—
    1. (i) if it is of the rateable value of one hundred pounds or upwards; or
    2. (ii) if the tenant does not actually reside on the holding, or where the holding adjoins or is ordinarily used with another holding then on the latter holding:

(2.) Where a distinct and substantive part of the property held under one demise is demesne land, or is not agricultural or pastoral in its character, or is an incorporeal hereditament, and the Court consider that that part is not the substantial part of such property, the Court may, if they are of opinion that, apart from the fixing of a, fair rout, the separation of the property into two parts will not diminish the value of the landlord's interest therein, direct that that part shall thenceforth be, or, if it is an incorporeal hereditament, be treated as a separate holding, and be held at such rent during the continuance of the tenancy as the Court determine to be the proper proportion of rent reserved by the demise, and the Court may fix a fair rent for the remainder of the property held under the demise, and the said Acts shall apply to that remainder as if it were a separate holding.

(3.) Nothing in this section shall extend to any holding in respect of which a judicial rent has been fixed before the commencement of this Act.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR moved in Paragraph (a) Sub-section (1) to omit the words "or to a letting of land, the main object of which is," leave out from "or" to "for" in line two, and to insert instead thereof the words "the main object of the letting of which was." This was, he said, a purely drafting Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

* SIR JOHN COLOMB

, on behalf of Mr. CARSON, moved, in Sub-paragraph (ii) Sub-section (1), after the word "demesne" to leave out the words "and which" and to insert the word "unless." This and the next Amendment sufficiently explained the object in view, which was to make it perfectly clear to what cases the provisions of the clause should apply.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND

was understood to say that the Amendment provided for that which never could occur.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MAURICE HEALY moved in paragraph (c) Sub-section (1), after the words "dairy farm" to insert the words "or a holding which was laid down in permanent pasture by the tenant at his own expense." He said he understood the right bon. Gentleman to agree to this Amendment in substance when they were in Committee, but that he would like time to consider it.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

said he had been considering it, but he could not see to what cases it would apply, because if a holding was originally an agricultural or pastoral holding and it was converted by a tenant, at his own expense, into permanent pasture, that would naturally come under the Land Act. He did not see really what case the hon. Member had in his mind.

MR. T. M. HEALY

said that if a tenant had laid down land in permanent pasture at his own expense, and a very expensive operation it was in some cases, it would surely be very unjust that a landlord should afterwards come in, and, on the ground that he contracted with the tenant to keep the land in pasture, be able to debar the tenant from the benefits of a subsequent Statute and prevent him going into Court to get a fair rent fixed. The Government accepted this Amendment in principle in Committee subject to the consideration of certain verbiage, and promised to deal with the matter in the Report Stage. They now found, however, that there was a certain disposition to accept no Amendment on the matter. At the same time the Government had not attempted to meet this Amendment by argument, and he thought the Irish Members were not being treated fairly and in a proper spirit.

COLONEL SAUNDERSON

said he could not help looking upon the Amendment as involving a very strong inducement to the Irish farmers to perjure themselves through efforts to prove that their fathers or grandfathers had laid down the land in pasture. The question really affected very few cases, and he did not think that any grievance existed in Ireland with regard to it.

Amendment negatived.

Mr. T. M. HEALY moved, in Subparagraph (i), paragraph (c), Sub-section (1), after the word "of" to insert the words "upwards of," so as to provide for even money.

Amendment agreed to amid Nationalist cheers.

MR. SMITH-BARRY moved, in Subparagraph (i), Paragraph (c), Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "one hundred," and to insert instead thereof the word "fifty." He submitted that no reason had been shown why these figures should ever be changed. There never was any case made out why it should be altered in favour of the dairy class of tenants. These tenants were not like the ordinary class of tenants who might have built the houses or made improvements. They were really graziers and cattle dealers, and they made no improvements upon the land. He very strongly protested against the alteration from 50 to £100, and he begged to move that the latter be struck out and £50 inserted.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

was understood to say that he could not accept the proposal of his right hon. Friend.

COLONELSAUNDERSON

regarded the proposal in the Bill as a wanton alteration in the Act of 1881.

MR. MAURICE HEALY

said he had an Amendment to raise the figure from £100 to £150, but he did not propose to move it. He said the limit of £50 was fixed under the Act of 1870. Under the Act of 1881, the limit under which they could contract was £150.

MR. W. FIELD) (Dublin, St. Patrick

pointed out that a grazing farm of 50 or 100 acres was not such an extraordinary allowance. The circumstances of the time were entirely different now to what they were in 1871.

* SIR J. COLOMB

said no adequate reason had been given for a departure from the principles of 1881. For his own part, when he went down to his constituents, He could only say that he had been supporting an Amendment of the Government to confer benefits on the very well-to-do classes in Ireland which were denied to the poorer classes in his own constituency.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Is a man earning £1 a week well-to-do?

Amendment negatived.

MR. T. M. HEALY moved, in Subparagraph (i) paragraph (c), Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "or upwards."

Amendment agreed to.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR moved in Sub-paragraph (iii), paragraph (c), Sub-section (1), after the word "holding" to add— In the construction of the 9th Section of the Land law (Ireland) Act, 1887, the word 'agriculture' shall be construed to mean agricultural or pastoral, or partly agricultural and partly pastoral.

MR. MAURICE HEALY

submitted that this provision would be more in place if inserted in Clause 4.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

asked leave to withdraw the Amendment for the present.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MAURICE HEALY moved, in Sub-section (2), after the words "a separate holding and," to insert the words "unless the tenancy has expired." The clause provided, in a case where a portion of the holding was non-agricultural, that the non-agricultural portion should be segregated from the rest of the holding, and then be held for the continuance of the tenancy. It might happen that a tenant with such a holding, being satisfied with his position, did not want to go into court. In that case there need be no necessity for that division.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND

said that if the words suggested by the hon. Member were inserted in the place proposed they would make the clause run awkwardly.

MR. T. M. HEALY

suggested that if the Amendment were made to read "shall, unless the tenancy has expired, "the awkwardness felt by the Government would be obviated.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Words "shall, unless the tenancy has expired" inserted.

MR. T. M. HEALY moved, in Subsection (2), after the word "holding," to insert the following sub-section:— (3) Where a holding is held by joint tenants or tenants in common and such tenants have worked and occupied separate portions thereof, and the division of the holding was made prior to the passing of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1887, the court may, if it thinks just, on the application of any joint tenant or tenant in common, fix a fair rent upon the portion of the holding-so separately occupied.

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